How would we find the Higgs if Higgs did not coupe to fermions?

In summary: The peak shows the presence of a b-jet. The b-jet background is just the number of events with a b-jet in it.
  • #1
UrbanXrisis
1,196
1
I'm pretty new to particle physics. Actaully, I'm brand new to particle physics (2nd year undergraduate). I've been invited into a course on the Higgs recently and have a few questions I was wondering about.

I was wondering what would happen if Higgs did not couple to fermions? Does this mean we cannot see the higgs decay from photons, electrons, muons, qurks and gluons? How would we find the Higgs if Higgs did not coupe to fermions?

And I was wondering why gluon fusion is the dominant Higgs production mechanism in both the LHC and Tevatron?

And what are "channels for Higgs discovery at Tevatron"? I'm more curious as to what 'channels' is referring to. And what are "backgroup processes"?

much thanks.
 
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  • #2
Just answering one question, since I'm hardly qualified to answer all of them.

In this case "decay channels" generally just means the way in which the particle decays. For instance, a particle that decays into either electrons or muons would be said to have two channels (or possibly one - in some parlance all leptons are considered to be identical). It really means that you can look for them by searching for electrons or for muons.

There is at least one model of the "Fermi-phobic" Higgs, where the Higgs does not couple to fermions. Such a Higgs would, however, couple to bosons. This leaves several important channels, Higgs->ZZ, Higgs->WW, and Higgs-> photon photon. Because the Z and the W then decay into fermions, we can still see the Higgs. These searches will be carried out at the LHC as an extension of the Higgs->ZZ and WW searches (these decay channels are very important for certain masses of the standard Higgs).

Unfortunately, I don't know more details. I also only have a rather vague idea of why gluon fusion is dominant, so I can't really answer that either. Hopefully someone with more information will be along shortly (and will fill in the gaps that I've left behind).
 
  • #3
The H-> photon photon would be rather difficult, since the main mediator is via a top loop (it can go by a W loop too though). Especially since the main production via gg->H would also be reduced.

Gluon fusion is so dominant mainly because the LHC is basically a gluon collider. At high energies most of the proton momentum is carried in gluons, so events are mainly gluon collisions. Then gg->H takes place via a top loop, so it is loop suppressed, but the large gluon luminosity and the large coupling of a Higgs to a top quark make up for it. Then there is also the bonus that you don't need extra energy to make something to go along with the Higgs - ie. you only make a Higgs, unlke say qqbar -> HZ where you need energy for the Z too.
 
  • #4
Severian said:
The H-> photon photon would be rather difficult, since the main mediator is via a top loop (it can go by a W loop too though). Especially since the main production via gg->H would also be reduced.

I did forget about the top loop problem.

But would the W loop work for Higgs Mass ~ 120? At that point isn't the offshell H->WW really disadvantageous?
 
  • #5
What are "backgroud processes"? Are those ways of reducing the backgroud noise so the higgs can be more easily detected? and what are current background processes that are used?
 
  • #6
But would the W loop work for Higgs Mass ~ 120? At that point isn't the offshell H->WW really disadvantageous?

Yes, but it is still less off-shell that top quarks would be. The difference here is the small HWW coupling compared to the large Htt coupling.

What are "backgroud processes"? Are those ways of reducing the backgroud noise so the higgs can be more easily detected? and what are current background processes that are used?

Since the Higgs decays rather quickly, you only see its decay products in the detector. These decay products can be produced in other ways - these other ways are the 'background'. For example gg->H followed by a Higgs decay to b-quarks (H->bb) may result in 2 tagged b-jets in the detector. But straight QCD without a Higgs can also produce this, so how do you tell one from the other. In principle, one could measure the b-pair invariant mass and see it there was a peak, but in this case, the b-jet background is so huge that you can't even trigger on it (ie. there are so many events like this that you can't record them fast enough).
 
  • #7
i'm not totally use to the termanology yet. what are "2 tagged b-jets"?

so the background is the straight QCD without a Higgs that also produces 2 tagged b-jets?

you said "b-pair invariant mass and see it there was a peak" what does the peak show?

and what is the b-jet backgroud?
 
  • #8
Severian said:
Yes, but it is still less off-shell that top quarks would be. The difference here is the small HWW coupling compared to the large Htt coupling.

But since a fermi-phobic Higgs would not have an Htt loop, it's still possible that H->gamma gamma would be the dominant decay mode for a low mass Higgs. That entire channel is a shot in the dark anyway, but maybe they can find it.
 
  • #9
UrbanXrisis said:
i'm not totally use to the termanology yet. what are "2 tagged b-jets"?

Sorry, I have the tendency to make assumptions. 'Jets' are what happens to quarks coming out of interactions. They turn into hardons like pions or kaons, or even protons and neutrons because of their string interaction, and this shower of particles is called a 'jet'. It is tagged if we can identify it as a b-quark originating jet. This is done for b quarks by looking for 'displaced vertices' - basically the B-meson (which the b-quark becomes part of) lives a long time before decaying, so we see some of the particles in the jet (ie. the B decay products) originating all from a point (or vertex) slightly displaced from the original interaction point.

so the background is the straight QCD without a Higgs that also produces 2 tagged b-jets?

For this one channel yes. For H->gamma gamma there is a different background.

you said "b-pair invariant mass and see it there was a peak" what does the peak show?

The Higgs is most likely to be produced with an invariant mass (the modulus of its 4-momentum, or [tex]\sqrt{E^2/c^4-p^2/c^2}[/tex]) close to its mass. invariant masses further away are increasingly unlikely, so you expect to see most of the events with this invariant mass and the signal is much bigger.

and what is the b-jet backgroud?

The process [tex]gg \to b \bar b[/tex] via QCD.

danAlwyn said:
But since a fermi-phobic Higgs would not have an Htt loop, it's still possible that H->gamma gamma would be the dominant decay mode for a low mass Higgs. That entire channel is a shot in the dark anyway, but maybe they can find it.

[tex]H \to \gamma \gamma[/tex] was never the dominant decay mode. At best (in non-fermiophobic models) its branching ratio is 10-3. It is only a good channel to look in because it is so clean. All you produce is two photons and nothing else, which has a low background. To do this you need to produce it with [tex]gg \to H[/tex].

Now in fermiofobic models, most of the decay widths will shrink, but H->ZZ* or WW* will not, so the branching ratio for [tex]H \to \gamma \gamma[/tex] will get smaller. Even worse, you lose your production mechanism [tex]gg \to H[/tex], and it can't be done with anything else, so I think you are stumped.
 
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  • #10
I've got more questions. what is the difference between pp coliders and ppbar colliders? What is the branching ratio?

So gg->H is the most promising channel for Higgs discovery at the tevatron and LHC right? but if the Higgs was fermiofobic, the most promissing channel would have to be the H->ZZ* or WW* channel right?

And what are some things that people use to beat down the background?
 
  • #11
UrbanXrisis said:
I've got more questions. what is the difference between pp coliders and ppbar colliders? What is the branching ratio?

The buggest difference is that protons are easier to make so pp colliders have higher luminosity (at TeV energies). At these energies, they are mainly gluons so it doesn't really matter what the valence quarks are.

So gg->H is the most promising channel for Higgs discovery at the tevatron and LHC right? but if the Higgs was fermiofobic, the most promissing channel would have to be the H->ZZ* or WW* channel right?

That sounds reasonable.

And what are some things that people use to beat down the background?

The background events tend to have a slighly different topology - their particle come out with particular momentum of particular directions. Therefore it is usual to discard events which 'look like' the expected backgrounds. This is called a 'cut'. Since we can predict the background pretty well, any statistical excess over what we expect in other areas is signal.

Also, for [tex]gg \to H \to \gamma \gamma[/tex] one can do a sideband subtraction. The background is constantly falling with the invariant mass of the two photons. The signal will be a slight peak in this falling spectrum where the Higgs mass is. One can plot a straight line from just before this bump to just after and anything above the bump is signal.

Take a loot at this plot:
http://wlap.physics.lsa.umich.edu/atlas/computing/workshops/2003BNL/20030828-02-mellado/real/slides/img013.gif
(There are much better plots than this but I am in a hurry...)
 
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  • #12
so what sideband subtraction means is taking the known predicted background and then subtracting it from the experimental?

are they any other ways to make these cuts other than a sideband subtraction?

and what exactly are pp coliders?
and what are ppbar colliders?
 
  • #13
UrbanXrisis said:
and what exactly are pp coliders?
and what are ppbar colliders?

They are proton-proton colliders and proton-antiproton colliders. p = proton, pbar = [itex]\overline{p}[/itex] = antiproton.
 
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  • #14
why are two different ones used?
 
  • #15
also, I was wondering what are the perfered Higgs decay as a function of its mass?

I know that H->gg, H->photon photon, H->ZZ, H->WW but how does that vary with mass? And are there any more decays?

oh and why is the H->photon photon so important at the LHC? I read that it has a branching fration of up to 2x10^-3. what does this all mean? why is H->photon photon so important?
 
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  • #16
UrbanXrisis said:
why are two different ones used?

To create new particles directly it is often useful to collide particles with antiparticles, so the Tevatron is a proton-antiproton collider. But at higher energies, eg. LHC enegies, the protons are mainly gluons anyway, so it doesn't really matter whether it is a proton or antiproton, and protons are much easier to produce.

UrbanXrisis said:
also, I was wondering what are the perfered Higgs decay as a function of its mass?

It basically decays into the heaviest thing allowed. So a low mass Higgs decays into bottom quarks and once it is heavy eneough to decay to W bosons it does. A really heavy Higgs is heavy enough to decay to top quarks and then that is the dominant decay mode. (Of course, slightly below threshold it can decay to virtual particles, so the different decay modes don't have sharp edges.) Have a look at:

th_higgsbr.jpg


Edit: How do I embed images at this site?

oh and why is the H->photon photon so important at the LHC? I read that it has a branching fration of up to 2x10^-3. what does this all mean? why is H->photon photon so important?

It is because it is so clean - ie. has small backgrounds.
 
  • #17
I just have a few general questions after reading more about the Higgs:

I am wondering about the dominant Higgs production mechanisms. I think they both are gg->H for pp and ppbar colliders. And if Higgs were fermiphobic, I think that mechanisms left are the vector boson fusion and higgs-strahlung processes. My question is which one is more dominant for pp/ppbar colliders? I have a guess that vector boson fusion is better for the LHC while higgs-strahlung is for TeVatron. This is because i see that vector boson fusion starts with qq while higgs-strahlung starts with qqbar. It's a wild guess, i was wondering if there was any justice in what I just wrote.

Also, which channels are the most promising channels for Higgs discovery at the TeVatron or LHC. I'm guessing that H->ZZ is best for the TeVatron and I'm not sure for the LHC.
 
  • #18
"Also, which channels are the most promising channels for Higgs discovery at the TeVatron or LHC. "

Thats very much a mass question. The most promising channel(s) varies depending on how heavy the Higgs is, and there's a long laundry list of channels per model per mass per detector that phenomelogists have to work through. Quite a nightmare actually.
 
  • #19
You can see the typical Higgs searches for ATLAS on this plot:
http://atlas-saclay.in2p3.fr/public/images/higgs.gif

Sorry it isn't a very good image (there must be a better one somewhere but I can't find it to link to). Above the dotted line would be a discovery at 5 standard deviations for 30 inverse femptobarns of data (about one year of high luminosity running). This plot is actually rather old now (it was in the ATLAS Technical Design report). A newer version can be found on page 10 of:
http://atlas.web.cern.ch/Atlas/GROUPS/PHYSICS/Conferences/2005/DIS05_Escalier.ppt

For those interested in the H-> gamma gamma, I found a better plot.
http://ihp-lx2a.ethz.ch/CompMethPP/lhc/pictures/higgs_massplot1.jpg
The red is signal, blue is background and you can see quite clearly that the blue drops continuously, so you should be able to disentangle the two quite easily.
 
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  • #20
Several Higgs fields?

In some versions of the Standard Model several Higgs fields are considered. Please, can you give me references to some papers with such extensions of the SM. References to on-line resources in arXiv.org are preferable.

Ruslan Sharipov, Ufa Russia.
 
  • #21
When several Higgs fields are considered, they are not talking about the Standard model (which has only one). The most popular theory with multiple Higgs is supersymmetry.

If you want to find out about supersymmetry you may find this article helpful:
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/9709356
 
  • #22
Recenly I have written a short note with some considerations that the Higgs boson could be not existing at all. Here is the link http://arXiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0703001/". I would like to hear some comments from experts, please.
 
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  • #23
Ruslan_Sharipov said:
Recenly I have written a short note with some considerations that the Higgs boson could be not existing at all. Here is the link http://arXiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0703001/". I would like to hear some comments from experts, please.

To be honest, I am surprised this got passed the hep-ph censor, since you have no affiliation.

A number of comments:

1. You didn't really explain what the '1's are on your fields, except for "each of the above psi functions has some definite number of indices taking the only value gamma = 1"

2. How are your quarks held together to form this composite Higgs?

3. You do not show how this composite Higgs can be used to break electroweak symmetry.

4. You do not explore the phenomenological consequences of your model.

5. Are you aware that Higgs as bound states of quarks has been extensively studied? It was realized that one needs to hold the quarks together somehow, so the obvious thought was to use QCD. When this didn't work, they introduced a higher energy version of QCD called Technicolor. Although some Technicolor models have not been ruled out, they are disfavoured by experiment. You make no attempt to review this work and put your own ideas into the context of the current literature.

If I was asked to review this paper, I would decline it for publication for the reasons outlined above.
 
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  • #24
Severian said:
A number of comments:

Thanks for the comments. Let's discuss them.

Severian said:
1. You didn't really explain what the '1's are on your fields, except for "each of the above psi functions has some definite number of indices taking the only value gamma = 1".

It is known that the Standard Model is bases on U(1)×SU(2)×SU(3) gauge symmetry. Gemetrically U(1) symmetry is represented as a one-dimensional complex vector-bundle over the space-time manifold.
Now imagine a tensor in a one-dimensional space. Its coordinate representation is a multi-indexed array whose indices take the only value 1.

Severian said:
2. How are your quarks held together to form this composite Higgs?

Its not a physical bound state. Its only a formula for substituting for the Higgs field into the Lagrangian of the Standard Model. Upon substituting you will get a new Lagrangian with no Higgs field in it.

Severian said:
3. You do not show how this composite Higgs can be used to break electroweak symmetry.

Approximately in the same way as the original Higgs field is used.

Severian said:
4. You do not explore the phenomenological consequences of your model.

Because it's a short note for to claim a model. Details will be completed later.

Severian said:
To be honest, I am surprised this got passed the hep-ph censor, since you have no affiliation.

Dear Severian, I know that nowadays the science is very similar to an "aristocratic golf club" in many aspects! However, I don't like it being this way.

Severian said:
You make no attempt to review this work and put your own ideas into the context of the current literature.

I think I have a little bit of time for doing it before the Fall of 2007, when the LHC starts.

OK, thank you for your comments.
 
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  • #25
Ruslan_Sharipov said:
Recenly I have written a short note with some considerations that the Higgs boson could be not existing at all.

Oh, GOODY! Thanks for the link. Some of us agree with you about the lack of Higgs, although we might not be members of the golf club.

:smile:
 

Related to How would we find the Higgs if Higgs did not coupe to fermions?

1. How does the Higgs boson interact with fermions?

The Higgs boson interacts with fermions through the Higgs mechanism, which gives particles mass. The Higgs boson is responsible for giving fundamental particles, such as quarks and electrons, their mass through the Higgs field. This interaction is crucial for the Standard Model of particle physics.

2. Why is it important to find the Higgs boson?

Finding the Higgs boson is important because it helps us understand the fundamental building blocks of the universe. It also confirms the existence of the Higgs field, which is essential for the Standard Model. Additionally, the discovery of the Higgs boson could lead to the development of new technologies and advancements in our understanding of the universe.

3. How would we detect the Higgs boson if it doesn't interact with fermions?

If the Higgs boson did not interact with fermions, we would have to rely on other particles, such as bosons or photons, to indirectly detect its existence. This could be done through particle collisions in high-energy accelerators, where we can observe the decay products of the Higgs boson.

4. Are there any alternative theories to the Higgs mechanism?

Yes, there are alternative theories to the Higgs mechanism, such as supersymmetry and technicolor. These theories propose different mechanisms for how particles acquire mass, and their predictions can be tested through experiments and observations.

5. What are the implications if we cannot find the Higgs boson?

If the Higgs boson is not found, it could mean that our current understanding of the universe is incomplete. This would require us to re-evaluate the Standard Model and develop new theories to explain the fundamental forces and particles in the universe. It could also lead to new discoveries and advancements in our understanding of the universe.

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