Hypersonic Aircraft: Flying from LA to NY in 30 mins?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of hypersonic aircraft and their potential to significantly reduce travel time, specifically the idea of flying from Los Angeles to New York in 30 minutes. Participants explore various aspects of hypersonic flight, including sonic booms, the physics of sound barriers, and the implications of developing such technology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express excitement about the possibility of hypersonic travel and question the size of the sonic boom produced by such aircraft.
  • Others reference the historical challenges faced by supersonic jets, suggesting skepticism about the feasibility of hypersonic passenger jets.
  • There are discussions about the nature of sonic booms, with some participants proposing that they are not a single event but rather a continuous phenomenon as the aircraft travels faster than sound.
  • One participant questions whether a sonic boom would occur again if an aircraft slows down after traveling faster than sound.
  • Some participants clarify that there is no "sound barrier" but rather shock waves that are present when an aircraft is supersonic or transonic.
  • There is a technical explanation of the transonic speed range and its implications for aircraft design, including the instability and drag associated with this speed range.
  • One participant mentions NASA's efforts to reduce the intensity of sonic booms through design modifications.
  • Another participant notes that multiple sonic booms can occur due to different parts of the aircraft creating shock waves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of enthusiasm and skepticism regarding hypersonic travel. There is no consensus on the feasibility of developing hypersonic passenger jets, and multiple competing views on the nature of sonic booms and sound barriers remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Discussions include varying definitions of transonic and supersonic speeds, as well as the effects of altitude on sonic boom intensity. Some technical claims about shock waves and sonic booms are made without consensus on their accuracy.

Char. Limit
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http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hypersonic-20100527,0,764506.story

I found this to be awesome, although I wonder what size of sonic boom a hypersonic passenger jet would make... Nevertheless, imagine flying from Los Angeles to New York in 30 minutes... and we have the technology to go hypersonic, how long could it take to develop a hypersonic passenger jet?

In a word, awesome.
 
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The supersonic jet didn't work out so well...
 
They should put a camera on it and fly it by some reference points so we can see just how fast it's going. Like when I run through the hallway in my house, I'm like lightning. But when I get on a football field, I'm the slowest person there. What gives?
 
Char. Limit said:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hypersonic-20100527,0,764506.story

I found this to be awesome, although I wonder what size of sonic boom a hypersonic passenger jet would make... Nevertheless, imagine flying from Los Angeles to New York in 30 minutes... and we have the technology to go hypersonic, how long could it take to develop a hypersonic passenger jet?

In a word, awesome.
The sonic boom occurs when the aircraft passes through the 'sound barrier'. Once it goes through it's supersonic - actually transonic (~0.7 to 1.2). Supersonic generally applies to M >1.2 to 5. Hypersonic, M > 5.

Definition: Where there is mixed sub- and supersonic local flow (M = .6 or .7 to 1.2).
Note: Hypersonic vehicles with bow shocks necessarily have a region of subsonic flow
behind the shock, so there is an element of transonic flow in these cases also.
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/ConfigAeroTrans.pdf

Most people apparently define the transonic range M = 0.8 to 1.2.
http://aero-comlab.stanford.edu/Papers/SympTransIV_DACAJ.pdf
 
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No Astronuc. A supersonic plane drags a shock wave behind it as it flies. What you describe is a Hollywood dramatization.

Also, the strength varies considerably with altitude so a hypersonic plane woulnt necessarily be audible from the ground.
 
russ_watters said:
Also, the strength varies considerably with altitude so a hypersonic plane woulnt necessarily be audible from the ground.

That's what they thought back in the day but test showed that even at great altitudes the boom was 'still a problem'.

The amount of 'boom' is actually more of a function on wing span and the planes weight.
 
I have a question.

What happens if you're traveling faster than the speed of sound... and then you slow down, passing the sound barrier again, back into the "traveling slower than the speed of sound" speeds?

Do you generate another sonic boom?
 
There is no such thing as a sound barrier. However there are shock waves which remain there as long as the aircraft is supersonic or transsonic.
 
Can someone clarify the "sonic boom" for me. As I understood it the boom doesn't just happen once. It would be progressing continually along the ground as the displaced air behind the aircraft rushed back together behind the aircraft. The boom wouldn't just happen once the aircraft passed the "barrier". It would be heard by whomever was under the aircraft when it passed overhead. Am I mistaken?
 
  • #10
Andre said:
There is no such thing as a sound barrier. However there are shock waves which remain there as long as the aircraft is supersonic or transsonic.

So you're saying that, the sonic boom noise "turns on" when the object travels faster than sound, and then "turns off" when it slows down to speeds lower than that of the sound..?
 
  • #11
Andre said:
There is no such thing as a sound barrier. However there are shock waves which remain there as long as the aircraft is supersonic or transsonic.

Ah, I think you answered my question as I was typing it.
 
  • #12
pivot said:
So you're saying that, the sonic boom noise "turns on" when the object travels faster than sound, and then "turns off" when it slows down to speeds lower than that of the sound..?
That is correct. A plane traveling faster than the speed of sound drags a cone-shaped shock wave behind it. The "boom" you hear is this cone shaped shock wave being dragged past you.
 
  • #13
Char. Limit said:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hypersonic-20100527,0,764506.story

I found this to be awesome, although I wonder what size of sonic boom a hypersonic passenger jet would make... Nevertheless, imagine flying from Los Angeles to New York in 30 minutes... and we have the technology to go hypersonic, how long could it take to develop a hypersonic passenger jet?

In a word, awesome.

Wow, this is amazing! That thing can travel almost a mile in a single second!
 
  • #14
One more point on top of all of this:

The boom that we hear is associated with a certain type of pressure pulse. We call it in N wave. As the "sonic boom" passes the bystander on the ground, there is a sudden sharp increase in pressure, followed by a sudden sharp decrease (looks kind of like an N). It is this sharp change in pressure that sounds so loud.

NASA has been doing a lot of work to "smooth" out the N wave as to decrease the intensity of the sonic boom. However, I'm not so sure designs could incorporate both features to decrease the sound while enabling hypersonic flight.
 
  • #15
pivot said:
I have a question.

What happens if you're traveling faster than the speed of sound... and then you slow down, passing the sound barrier again, back into the "traveling slower than the speed of sound" speeds?

Do you generate another sonic boom?

One thing, just to give a word to your quoted phrase. I believe that speeds slower than the speed of sound are described as "subsonic".

Although I'm not sure what transsonic is... "beyond" the speed of sound?
 
  • #16
Char. Limit said:
Although I'm not sure what transsonic is... "beyond" the speed of sound?
Transonic is the speed range right around the speed of sound (around .8-1.2 or .9 to 1.1 mach, depending on the plane), where parts of an airplane are flying through subsonic air and parts of it are flying through supersonic air. In particular, as air travels over the top surface of a wing, it speeds up. At the point on the wing where it speeds-up to Mach 1, a shock wave forms. As the plane accelerates, this shock wave moves backwards on the wing until it reaches the trailing edge when the plane hits Mach 1. The reason this speed region is characterized by unstable flight and high drag is these shock waves are not stable and move around on the plane. For that reason, it is best for planes not to linger in this region, but to accelerate through it relatively quickly.

See diagrams halfway down this page: http://www.flightlearnings.com/high-speed-flight-shock-waves/480/
 
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  • #17
Char. Limit said:
Although I'm not sure what transsonic is... "beyond" the speed of sound?

Spanning the speed of sound, i.e. .8 to 1.2.


BTW, there are actually multiple booms, all very close together. There's a shock wave from each leading edge of a protrusion on a plane. Usually one can hear, at most, two booms, almost on top of each other - one from the nose, and another from the wing leading edge (or from the tail).

[PLAIN]http://blogs.discovery.com/news_space/images/2008/11/03/t38.jpg
 
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