I need to make or buy a insulated wire Mesh

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the construction of a device requiring insulated wire mesh electrodes, exploring various methods to achieve this while maintaining flexibility. Participants consider different materials and designs, including flexible PCBs and traditional wire mesh, while addressing the implications for ozone production and discharge characteristics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest using flexible PCB materials to create the necessary electrode configuration.
  • Others question the feasibility of using insulated conductors for achieving surface discharge, noting that air or oxygen flow is necessary.
  • One participant proposes using two single-sided flexible PCBs with a gap to allow air flow between insulated conductors.
  • Another participant mentions the importance of having sharp exposed points on high-tension electrodes to maximize voltage gradients for ozone production.
  • There is a suggestion to cover the PCB with un-plated via holes to facilitate discharge through the vias.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for ozone and other reactive species to damage the inner surfaces of the vias.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness of flexible PCBs for the intended application, with some supporting the idea while others remain skeptical about achieving the desired discharge characteristics. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the best approach.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for flexibility in the design and the implications of insulation on discharge efficiency. There are unresolved questions regarding the specific configurations and materials that would best suit the application.

13Nike
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I'm constructing a device that needs two electrodes in a mesh-like formation. there doesn't have to be a cavity but one is preferred.

I have this https://imgur.com/a/DWoxQ
But I need there to be insulation like on a normal wire. I'm looking at a wire gauge of 28+ AWG.
Ive tried 3D printing a loom to help me but that didnt work out great. I am thinking of buying this and replacing the yarn with wire.
 
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13Nike said:
I'm constructing a device that needs two electrodes in a mesh-like formation. there doesn't have to be a cavity but one is preferred.

I have this https://imgur.com/a/DWoxQ
But I need there to be insulation like on a normal wire. I'm looking at a wire gauge of 28+ AWG.
Ive tried 3D printing a loom to help me but that didnt work out great. I am thinking of buying this and replacing the yarn with wire.
Can you just use a PC Board with traces on each side oriented orthogonally? What is the application?
 
berkeman said:
Can you just use a PC Board with traces on each side oriented orthogonally? What is the application?

It needs to be flexible. I'm just trying to create surface discharge from a flexible medium.
 
13Nike said:
It needs to be flexible.
There are flexible PCB materials available...
13Nike said:
I'm just trying to create surface discharge from a flexible medium.
Sorry, what does that mean? If the wires are insulated, what kind of discharge are you going to get?
 
berkeman said:
There are flexible PCB materials available...

Sorry, what does that mean? If the wires are insulated, what kind of discharge are you going to get?

Yeah I just realized that. Just requested a quote from a flexible pcb maker,

Im looking to achieve dielectric barrier discharge / ozone production
 
13Nike said:
Yeah I just realized that. Just requested a quote from a flexible pcb maker,

Im looking to achieve dielectric barrier discharge / ozone production
Hmm, I don't think the flexible PCB approach will work, because you need air or O2 to flow between the insulated conductors.

http://www.lenntech.com/library/ozone/generation/ozone-generation.htm

You could maybe use two single-sided flexible PCB pieces, with a gap between them to allow the air/O2 to flow between them...
 
berkeman said:
Hmm, I don't think the flexible PCB approach will work, because you need air or O2 to flow between the insulated conductors.

http://www.lenntech.com/library/ozone/generation/ozone-generation.htm

You could maybe use two single-sided flexible PCB pieces, with a gap between them to allow the air/O2 to flow between them...

Well when I inquired about the design to a pcb maker I asked if the grounded electrode can protrude from the surface. So there should be a cavity if its a square mesh correct? I like the PCB idea more than the pic I included. I have also thought about dipping the copper mesh in some kind of coating material.
 
I think you will get more help if you show the configuration of the assembly you intend to create. Minimal information = Minimal help
 
JBA said:
I think you will get more help if you show the configuration of the assembly you intend to create. Minimal information = Minimal help

Well I haven't built anything but the original design is simply this https://imgur.com/a/DWoxQ, Where the horizontal wires has a HV signal, and the vertical wire is a grounded electrode. I just need an insulated version of this, as in the copper isn't being exposed.
 
  • #10
13Nike said:
I just need an insulated version of this, as in the copper isn't being exposed.
Ozone is produced when the voltage gradient in air starts to causes corona discharge. Any insulation on the HT electrode will reduce discharge and increase the HT voltage required. The HT electrode(s) should have sharp exposed points to generate the strongest field gradients.

You should use long glass or Teflon rods as insulators to support the HT electrodes. High voltages will break down the surface contamination of a PCB and so increasing leakage currents will flow.
Look at the way the corona wires in a photocopier or laser printer are supported and driven by the HT module. The corona wire has a very small diameter to maximise the voltage gradient to the drum.
 
  • #11
Baluncore said:
Ozone is produced when the voltage gradient in air starts to causes corona discharge. Any insulation on the HT electrode will reduce discharge and increase the HT voltage required. The HT electrode(s) should have sharp exposed points to generate the strongest field gradients.

You should use long glass or Teflon rods as insulators to support the HT electrodes. High voltages will break down the surface contamination of a PCB and so increasing leakage currents will flow.
Look at the way the corona wires in a photocopier or laser printer are supported and driven by the HT module. The corona wire has a very small diameter to maximise the voltage gradient to the drum.
Ozone production isn't necessary I just want to study the chemical species produced. I'm expecting there to be ozone and other oxygen allotropes. Is it not produced in dielectric barrier discharge?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone#Cold_plasma

Also I the HV electrode shoould be around 5-10kV, with a power density of 0.05W/cm^2
 
  • #12
13Nike said:
Well when I inquired about the design to a pcb maker I asked if the grounded electrode can protrude from the surface.

Perhaps you could cover the PCB in thousands of un-plated via holes with the discharge occurring through the vias (eg between the conducting layers on each side)?
 
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  • #13
CWatters said:
Perhaps you could cover the PCB in thousands of un-plated via holes with the discharge occurring through the vias (eg between the conducting layers on each side)?

Yes this might work. Currently looking for flex pcb vendors
 
  • #14
CWatters said:
Perhaps you could cover the PCB in thousands of un-plated via holes with the discharge occurring through the vias (eg between the conducting layers on each side)?
I expect the presence of ozone and similar reactive ions in the small holes adjacent to the PCB resin will burn the inner surface of the hole and result in many carbon tracks between the two electrode surfaces.