I want to know if the sketch I've drawn of the catenary suits the exercise

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    Catenary Drawing
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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving a catenary cable supporting a balloon. The original poster presents a scenario where the vertical force on the balloon is given, along with the cable's length and weight per unit length, and seeks to calculate the horizontal force and the height of the balloon under equilibrium conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the relationship between different forces acting on the balloon, questioning the balance of vertical forces and the implications of the cable's tension. There are discussions about the diagram's accuracy and how it affects the understanding of the problem. Some participants suggest that the horizontal force may need to be accounted for, while others discuss deriving the forces without relying on the catenary equation.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with various interpretations and approaches being explored. Some participants have provided insights into the relationships between forces, while others are questioning the assumptions made in the original setup. There is no explicit consensus, but productive discussions are taking place regarding the derivation of the necessary equations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential issues with the diagram's orientation and the assumptions about the cable's behavior. There is also mention of deriving the catenary curve from first principles, indicating a focus on foundational understanding rather than reliance on provided equations.

mcastillo356
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Homework Statement
The exercise is about, concerned with the catenary. But, algebraicaly solved, some sketch was missing.
Relevant Equations
##y=y_0\,cosh{\cfrac{x}{y_0}}##
##y'=sinh{\cfrac{x}{y_0}}##
Statement
The vertical component of the force exerted on the balloon in the figure is ##500\,N##. The ##AB## cable has a length of ##70\,m## and a weight per unit length of ##q=5\,N/m##. Calculate the horizontal component of the force exerted on the balloon, and the height of the globe, assuming the system is in equilibrium.

Algebraic solution
As we know there are two points, ##A## and ##B##, we use the following notation for the stresses: ##T_A## and ##T_B##, and ##T_{A_x}##, ##T_{A_y}##,##T_{B_x}##,##T_{B_y}## for the horizontal and vertical components. We will also use the concept of length of arch. We will assume that the arch ##AB## belongs to a catenary with the following notation: ##y=y_0\,cosh{\cfrac{x}{y_0}}## respect a cartesian coordinate system with no origin at ##A## nor ##B##.

It is known that at any point of the cable, the vertical component of the stress is directly proportional to the length of the arch, ##s##, being the proportionality constant the weight of the cable per length unit, ##q##. Also, the horizontal component is constant.

So, ##T_{B_y}=q\,s_B\Longleftrightarrow{500=5\,s_B}\Longleftrightarrow{s_B=100\,m}##

Thus, ##s_A=100-70=30\,m##

$$s_A=\displaystyle\int_0^{x_A}\,\sqrt{1+[y'(x)]^2}\,dx=y_0\,sinh{\cfrac{x_A}{y_0}}\Longleftrightarrow{30=y_0\,sinh{\cfrac{x_A}{y_0}}}=y_0\cdot{y'(x_A)}=y_0\,\tan{20^o}\Longrightarrow{y_0=\cfrac{30}{\tan{20^o}}}$$

Thus, respect to the horizontal component of the force made to the globe,

$$T_{B_x}=T_0=q\,y_0=5\cdot{\cfrac{30}{\tan{20^o}}}=412.12\,N$$

Also,

$$\cosh{\cfrac{x_A}{y_0}}=\sqrt{1+sinh^2{\cfrac{x_A}{y_0}}}=\sqrt{1+\tan^2{20^o}}\Longrightarrow{ y_A=y_0\,\cosh{\cfrac{x_A}{y_0}}=y_0\,\sqrt{1+\tan^2{20^o}}=30\sqrt{1+\cot^2{20^o}}}$$

On the other side

$$s_B=\displaystyle\int_0^{x_B}\,\sqrt{1+[y'(x)]^2}\,dx=y_0\,\sinh{\cfrac{x_B}{y_0}}\Longleftrightarrow{100=y_0\sinh{\cfrac{x_B}{y_0}}}\Longrightarrow{\sinh{\cfrac{x_B}{y_0}}}=\cfrac{100}{y_0}\Longrightarrow{\cosh{\cfrac{x_B}{y_0}}}=\sqrt{1+\sinh^2{\cfrac{x_B}{y_0}}}=\sqrt{1+\bigg (\cfrac{100}{y_0}\bigg )^2}\Longrightarrow{}$$

$$y_B=y_0\,\sqrt{1+\bigg (\cfrac{100}{y_0}\bigg )^2}=30\,\sqrt{\cfrac{100}{9}+\cot^2{20^o}}$$

Knowing the ordinates of both positions, we compute the difference

$$h=y_B-y_A=30\,\sqrt{\cfrac{100}{9}+\cot^2{20^o}}-30\,\sqrt{1+\cot^2{20^o}}\Longleftrightarrow{h=41.876\,m}$$

Finally, the calculus that inspired the Geogebra file I've drawn is this:

If ##s_B=100##, ##l(AB)=70##, then
$$s_B\,:=\displaystyle\int_0^{x_B}\sqrt{1+[y'(x)]^2}\,dx=\displaystyle\int_0^{x_A}\sqrt{1+[y'(x)]^2}\,dx+\displaystyle\int_{x_A}^{x_B}\sqrt{1+[y'(x)]^2}\,dx\Longrightarrow{s_B=s_A+l(AB)}\Longrightarrow{s_A=100-70=30}$$

There goes. No preview.

Cat.png
Exercise.jpg
 
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mcastillo356 said:
The vertical component of the force exerted on the balloon in the figure is 500N.
What force is this?
There would be three vertical forces on the balloon, no? The weight of the balloon, the buoyant force on the balloon and the vertical component of the force from the cable.
Since the system is in equilibrium, these are in balance.
The vertical component of the force from the cable would be downwards and must be less than the weight of the cable (unless the diagram is misleading, and ought to show the cable rising above its tether, not hanging from it).
 
The diagram is twisted to the right in the original post. It should have been like this:




Balloon.jpg
 
mcastillo356 said:
The diagram is twisted to the right in the original post. It should have been like this:




View attachment 360104
Ok, but that can only be in equilibrium if there is some other horizontal force, a breeze perhaps, on the balloon. So I assume the task is to find that force.

You have the right answer for ##T_{Bx}##, but it can be derived in three or four lines, without needing to know the equation for a catenary.

Your diagram appears to put both the anchor point, A, and the origin for the catenary equation on the x axis. This is not possible. Maybe it would be clearer either by making the diagram larger or distorting the scale.
 
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haruspex said:
You have the right answer for ##T_{Bx}##, but it can be derived in three or four lines, without needing to know the equation for a catenary.
How?
 
Lnewqban said:
How?
How? . . . indeed .

How are ##\displaystyle T_{By}## and ##\displaystyle T_{Ay}## related ?

How are ##\displaystyle T_{Ax}## and ##\displaystyle T_{Ay}## related ?

How are ##\displaystyle T_{Ax}## and ##\displaystyle T_{Bx}## related ?
 
SammyS said:
How? . . . indeed .
The axial tension of the rope at B must be equal to the axial tension of the rope at A plus the weight of the rope.

Catenary rope.jpg
 
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Everything gets fixed, I mean well defined, if we set the proper function that suits the correct diagram, ie, ##f(x)=82.42\cosh{\cfrac{x}{82.42}}##. Provided a cientific calculator, ##x_A=29.37##, and ##x_B=84.44##; so we conclude

$$L=\displaystyle\int_{x_A}^{x_B}{\,\cosh{\cfrac{x}{82.42}}\,dx}\simeq{70}$$

Catenator.png

There goes, no preview
 
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The forces can be derived without the equation for the catenary (as @haruspex stated), but that isn't the only objective.

The catenary equation (if given in the question statement) to solve the problem to get the height of the balloon is a "helper fact", but it should be derivable from first principles. i.e. you shouldn't have to know it- correct?
 
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erobz said:
The forces can be derived without the equation for the centenary
catenary. Same etymological root as "chain".
erobz said:
The centenary equation (if given in the question statement) to solve the problem to get the height of the balloon is a "helper fact", but it should be derivable from first principles. i.e. you shouldn't have to know it- correct?
Interestingly, we could have been given the weight of the rope instead of its mass per unit length. The answer can still be found without assuming the rope is uniform, so no need to assume it follows a catenary.
 
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  • #11
haruspex said:
catenary. Same etymological root as "chain".
Oh yes, a double misspelling. Fixed.
haruspex said:
Interestingly, we could have been given the weight of the rope instead of its mass per unit length. The answer can still be found without assuming the rope is uniform, so no need to assume it follows a catenary.
Yeah, I do see that.

I'm having a bit of trouble deriving the curve, ## y(x)## from first principles.
 

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