Ice will melt faster which case -- over or below hot block?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the heat transfer mechanisms involved when ice is placed above or below a hot metal block. It is established that conduction is the primary mode of heat transfer between the ice and the metal block, while convection plays a minor role due to the solid state of ice. When the hot block is below the ice, the air heated by the block rises, potentially enhancing heat transfer at the edges of the ice. However, the flow of meltwater is crucial, as it facilitates heat transfer and affects the melting rate of the ice.

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  • Understanding of heat transfer mechanisms: conduction and convection
  • Knowledge of phase changes, particularly melting
  • Familiarity with buoyancy and natural convection principles
  • Basic physics of temperature gradients and their effects
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Ravi Singh choudhary
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Natural convection always occurs opposite of gravity due to buoyancy; but I am confused as ice is solid so how could possibly convection even contribute to the heat transfer. I doubt about air movements nearby block that may contribute to greater heat transfer rate in case of hot block placed below the ice.

Pls help
 

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Your drawing shows the ice and hot metal blocks are in contact. So most heat will be transported by conduction not convection. It will not make much difference which one is on top.

Ravi Singh choudhary said:
as ice is solid so how could possibly convection even contribute to the heat transfer

Convection only occurs in liquids and gasses, NOT in solids like ice.

If you look what happens at the edges...

If the metal block is below the ice it will heat up the air causing the air to rise past the edges of the ice.
If the metal is on the top that energy is carried away into the room without going past the edges of the ice.

Convection.jpg
 
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I am talking about even the negligible difference between the timing of melting of ice.
I think ice on top of metal block will win the race.
 
I agree.
 
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Ravi Singh choudhary said:
Natural convection always occurs opposite of gravity due to buoyancy; but I am confused as ice is solid so how could possibly convection even contribute to the heat transfer. I doubt about air movements nearby block that may contribute to greater heat transfer rate in case of hot block placed below the ice.

Heat transfer is almost entirely determined by flow of melt water and steam . Simple air current convection will probably only be be a minor contributor .

Try thinking about the actual physics of what is happening .
 
Nidum said:
Heat transfer is almost entirely determined by flow of melt water and steam . Simple air current convection will probably only be be a minor contributor .

Try thinking about the actual physics of what is happening .

I think steam would not be there as metal block is at 50 degree Celsius only.
 
In between the ice block and the metal block there must be a layer of melt water .

What happens to this layer of water as the melting of the ice block progresses ?
 
Last edited:
Nidum said:
In between the ice block and the metal block there must be a layer of melt water .

What happens to this layer of water as the melting of the ice block progresses ?
I think water will flow down between the edges of block
 
Yes - water will flow out continuously while the melting process is active .

So :

(a) What is the main mechanism of heat transfer between the blocks ?

(b) Is there any additional mechanism of heat transfer involving the external flow of the melt water ?

(c) Back to the original question - does it make any difference which block is on top ?
 
  • #10
Nidum said:
Yes - water will flow out continuously while the melting process is active .

So :

(a) What is the main mechanism of heat transfer between the blocks ?

(b) Is there any additional mechanism of heat transfer involving the external flow of the melt water ?

(c) Back to the original question - does it make any difference which block is on top ?
Yeah that water would be at just more than zero degree Celsius. That means we have a gradient between atmosphere and water flowing. So somehow it will drop the temperature nearby air. If Ice would be on top; it will decrease the metal block temperature side wise also. In the meantime the gradient between metal block and ice will reduce consequently it would reduce the heat transfer. But if Ice would be below the metal block, then water will just fall to the ground.
 
  • #11
What is the answer to (a) ?
 
  • #12
Nidum said:
What is the answer to (a) ?
Conduction only
 
  • #13
Is that correct ?

What do other PF members think ?
 
  • #14
Nidum said:
Is that correct ?

What do other PF members think ?
I must say conduction is predominant. Convection would be there due to liquid water flowing and air movement also. Magnitude of both will decide, in which case ICE will melt fast?
 
  • #15
Ravi Singh choudhary said:
I must say conduction is predominant. Convection would be there due to liquid water flowing and air movement also

Seems about right for the problem you originally described . At higher temperature differences convection would probably become more active .

That's it for now .
 
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