I'm finally coming out of the closet, atheism I mean.

[nismaratwork]

That's a beautiful quote from Carl Sagan. I enjoyed it, and I think it's a powerful thought.

That said, I'm not sure what it has to do with winning or losing the cosmic lottery. I'm not trying to say that we should all be depressed, or think that life is terrible because it could be so much better. That's a completely different issue, one of optimism vs. pessimism. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think of what happened to us as remarkable.

Let me explain this further with an analogy (I heard this somewhere, but I can't remember who said it first): Suppose I deal you five cards out of a deck. You take one look at them, and say, "Remarkable! Look what I got! Two kings, a three, an eight, and a six! Now, the odds of this specific hand being dealt was just one out of 52!/(5!*47!). That's tiny!"

Of course, that's silly. I dealt you a hand, so you had to get something, Whatever you get, you can say that it's a miracle.

Often, religious people buttress their arguments by saying that the odds of the world evolving the way it did are infinitesimal. So the must have been divine intervention. That's like saying that there had to be divine intervention in the hand I dealt you-- how else could you have gotten such a rare hand?

My understanding is that when Hawking said that we won the cosmic lottery, he was trying to answer that religious argument. In other words, yes, it's rare, it's remarkable that the world evolved the way it did, but hey, we won the lottery of evolution! Good for us, sucks for anyone who would have lived on Venus! Those guys lost!

That's where I disagree. Yes, we won relative to potential people on Venus, but we lost relative to what could have been, and perhaps what exists elsewhere. We know of but a tiny bit of our universe. So yes, we can look at the planets around us, and say, "We won $1 million, they all lost." But that's myopic. We have no idea what the potential winnings were.

I could be wrong here, but I think DA was making a case for the apparent tolerances believed to be a factor, not a case for divine intervention. Your argument is correct in the sense that, if given an infinity of choices, any outcome is possible, BUT... there's nothing to suggest that we had such an infinite menu. It's possible that this universe has no cyclical element, and that there isn't more than one. It's possible that our universe isn't infinite in extent, which closes off more 'chances'.

You seem to be talking about which planet, star-system, or galaxy we ended up in being all we know, not necessarily the best. DA, I think, is talking about matters such as physical constants which allowed for the formation of matter other than a soup or something equally unfriendly to thermodynamic processes that we associate with life.

 

[rootX]

I’m not saying that everything is perfect, but you are alive? Aren’t you?? Pick up a stone and experience the difference...

...

Sure, it could be real fun to have $1 million or $5 billion, but if you look at the Pale Blue Dot and think one step further, you’ll realize that you already are a "cosmic gazillionaire"... enjoy!

I don't understand why atheists are so desperate to downgrade religions. Science vs religions is apples and oranges comparison. This is not right place to discuss the wonders of universe or to perform atheism propaganda .

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... I'm not trying to say that we should all be depressed, or think that life is terrible because it could be so much better. That's a completely different issue, one of optimism vs. pessimism. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think of what happened to us as remarkable.

Agree!

... DA, I think, is talking about matters such as physical constants which allowed for the formation of matter other than a soup or something equally unfriendly to thermodynamic processes that we associate with life.

Sort of...


I think we’re talking past each other, basically saying the same thing, but in different "frameworks":

1) The Big Bang and the evolution of Universe.

2) The possible evolution of different life forms and level of intelligence.

3) The odds in "Lottery of Life" for you being you.​

There are enormous amounts of "peculiar coincidences" for life to arise on planet Earth, 3.5 billion years ago. But if we put these "peculiar coincidences" in the light of the fact that we know that there are at least 9 billion trillion other stars out there, and that most of them have several orbiting planets, and today 518 of these exoplanets has already been detected = the "strangeness" drops dramatically.

At 2 Dec 2010 Felisa Wolfe-Simon at NASA, announced that they have discovered a new form of life, the GFAJ-1 bacterium, that in lack of the usual phosphorus use arsenic in their DNA (normally toxic), which means that the normal chemical compounds of life as we know it on Earth is not mandatory = the "strangeness" drops even more.

Cells of bacterium GFAJ-1

Thus far no one can prove or disapprove that the Universe is infinite (most cosmologist think it is), but the possibility is there = "strangeness" is a dead parrot.

Therefore, as pointed out, life itself as a "phenomena" is not "strange" at all. One day we will (most) probably find out that the "life process" is as "natural" as when a protostar ignite at 10 million kelvins.

If there are other civilizations out there, absolutely nothing indicates that we are the most advanced. On the contrary, a majority are probably millions of years ahead of us.

Could there be real "Disney Worlds" out there? Where everyone looks like Angelina Jolie & Brad Pitt with the intelligence of Einstein², and fly on their private unicorn to work...?

I have absolutely no idea. But I imagine that the chances they look like green slime with the intelligence of Einstein¹⁰ is probably equal. It really doesn’t bother me.

What I’m talking about is an understanding and appreciation for having the enormous luck of being alive as a consciousness human on this Pale Blue Dot.

The combinations of your mother’s eggs & father’s sperms during one year of "activity" alone are approx 20 billions, i.e. there could have been many many different "mathematicsma", but it was you.

This is nothing but pure chance and maybe we should give it a thought now and then... and realize that paradise is right under our feet (even if it’s a terrible mess now and then).

That’s all.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I don't understand why atheists are so desperate to downgrade religions. Science vs religions is apples and oranges comparison. This is not right place to discuss the wonders of universe or to perform atheism propaganda .

With all due respect, if you call scientific facts "atheism propaganda", I don’t think "the problem" is on my behalf.

If I said something scientifically wrong, please correct me.

 

[1MileCrash]

No one will be rude to you for coming out as an atheist, in my experience.

However, if you're like me, you'll still be annoyed by people. Many Christians think that Christianity is fact and that an atheist is someone who just hasn't found God yet. They also think that atheism is someone who secretly believes in God but denies his existence anyway.

When they say "I'll be praying for you" or "maybe one day he will touch your heart" that's really just code for "you're wrong, but I know if I get into an actual debate on the subject I'll lose, therefore passive-aggression is my best bet."

Christians do not view atheism equally. That is fact. An atheist is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

 

[Kevin_Axion]

Your point is confusing, are you an atheist?

 

[1MileCrash]

Your point is confusing, are you an atheist?

Yes, what about my post is confusing?

 

[Kevin_Axion]

You ended saying

An atheist is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

so it sounds as though you think atheists haven't found the truth. I wasn't able to distinguish if that was your perspective or the perspective of Christians. I'm an agnostic, whenever I discuss this topic with my English teacher, she always referenced Pi Patel in the Life of Pi. Pi states that being an atheist is better then being an agnostic because at least they stand for something in life. I don't think the book is correct because agnostics are those who "suspend judgement" (Bertrand Russell) until any reasonable evidence shows truth to one side. My point being the books tries to establish a dichotomy and scrutinize those that haven't been convinced either way. This middle way is actually a necessary component in life because everyone is born an agnostic (a neutrality point) and everyone doubts to a degree in order to become an atheist or a believer.

 

[bp_psy]

You ended saying so it sounds as though you think atheists haven't found the truth. I wasn't able to distinguish if that was your perspective or the perspective of Christians. I'm an agnostic, whenever I discuss this topic with my English teacher, she always referenced Pi Patel in the Life of Pi. Pi states that being an atheist is better then being an agnostic because at least they stand for something in life. I don't think the book is correct because agnostics are those who "suspend judgement" (Bertrand Russell) until any reasonable evidence shows truth to one side. My point being the books tries to establish a dichotomy and scrutinize those that haven't been convinced either way. This middle way is actually a necessary component in life because everyone is born an agnostic (a neutrality point) and everyone doubts to a degree in order to become an atheist or a believer.

So do you "suspend judgment" on the notion that there is pink three headed physically undetectable flying uranium unicorn behind your back?

 

[Gokul43201]

PLEASE, let's not make this an argument about theism vs atheism vs agnosticism. I would suggest that if anyone here wishes to do anything other than address the OP's situation, this is not the thread for it.

Personally, I grew up in a third world country with a long religious tradition, yet never had to experience the kind of situation the OP is going through, so I can't quite relate to it. Specifically, I never really had a "coming out" moment - somewhere along the way (during my teenage years, I guess), my parents figured out I was atheist, and didn't make much of a deal about it. Having lived in the US for the past decade, I can understand that the situation can be somewhat different for many families here, but can't really offer any good advice.

 

[Jasongreat]

No one will be rude to you for coming out as an atheist, in my experience.

However, if you're like me, you'll still be annoyed by people. Many Christians think that Christianity is fact and that an atheist is someone who just hasn't found God yet. They also think that atheism is someone who secretly believes in God but denies his existence anyway.

When they say "I'll be praying for you" or "maybe one day he will touch your heart" that's really just code for "you're wrong, but I know if I get into an actual debate on the subject I'll lose, therefore passive-aggression is my best bet."

Christians do not view atheism equally. That is fact. An atheist is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

And vice versa, your post could have as easily said:(bolded parts were my changes)

However, if you're like me, you'll still be annoyed by people. Many Atheists think that Atheism is fact and that a christian is someone who just hasn't found the "truth" yet. They also think that a christian is someone who secretly believes in science but denies its existence anyway.

When they say "maybe one day science will open your mind" that's really just code for "you're wrong, but I know if I get into an actual debate on the subject no body will win, therefore aggression is my best bet."

Atheists do not view christianity equally. That is fact. A christian is someone who hasn't found "THE TRUTH" yet.

The whole athiest vs christian debate can never be won, since neither side has concrete verifiable proof(atleast not yet), only their opinion based on faith. Atleast agonstics are open minded about it. Does it really matter what ones religious beliefs are? It seems to me atheists as well as christians don't ever consider the other sides argument because they don't understand how they can believe what they do so they go about trying to downgrade the others views.

To the OP: Congratulations on the beginning of becoming your own person, and developing your own beliefs apart from what you were taught. Is there really a need to throw it in the face of your parents though, especially if they might react badly which will cause more hard feelings. When I was 12 or thirteen I told my parents I wasnt going to church anymore, that was the end of the discussion. We have never sat down and had a discussion about it, cause there is no need and nothing good would ever come of it. I would never be able to change their beliefs, and they could never change mine. Live and let live. You may be interested in reading Thomas Paines "Age of Reason", I enjoyed it.

 

[1MileCrash]

And vice versa, your post could have as easily said:(bolded parts were my changes)

You can grammatically say that... but it makes it factually wrong.

I don't know any atheists who view christians as these poor, hopeless people condemned to a magical furnace who desperately need to find.. "science" or whatever your god replacement constituted in order to go to an equally magical paradise in the sky.

The whole athiest vs christian debate can never be won, since neither side has concrete verifiable proof(atleast not yet)

Occam's razor. Don't throw god into the mix if we have scientific theories that work unaided. There is no reason to prove there is no god just as there is no way for you to prove that there is no invisible pink unicorn in my garage. If a scientific process shows that there must be a god, then that is proof of god's existence. If there is none, then there is no reason to assume there is one. If I make the claim that there is an invisible pink unicorn in my garage, the burden of proof falls on me to show its existence, not on you to show its non-existence (a task which you'd likely find impossible.)

FYI everyone is a little agnostic, it only makes sense. That is, any fundamental christian will deny having even a sliver of doubt or agnosticism in their beliefs. However, you'd be hard-pressed to find more than a couple of atheists who will make the claim that there is absolutely, positively, no god, and that the existence of one is impossible. THAT is the difference.

 

[nismaratwork]

PLEASE, let's not make this an argument about theism vs atheism vs agnosticism. I would suggest that if anyone here wishes to do anything other than address the OP's situation, this is not the thread for it.

Personally, I grew up in a third world country with a long religious tradition, yet never had to experience the kind of situation the OP is going through, so I can't quite relate to it. Specifically, I never really had a "coming out" moment - somewhere along the way (during my teenage years, I guess), my parents figured out I was atheist, and didn't make much of a deal about it. Having lived in the US for the past decade, I can understand that the situation can be somewhat different for many families here, but can't really offer any good advice.

I think the advice for coming out as ANYTHING, theist, atheist, gay, straight... whatever... should be handled with care. You balance your own need to live an open and honest life with your privacy and need for your family. Some people can't live a lie, even for a few days, some won't, and some see it as the easiest way. As you say Gokul, by the time these things are issues, usually everyone involved knows SOMETHING is going on.

Hell, one of my best friends is a gay man born to very traditional Hindi parents... who would be outraged. He has never told them, and he's glad to have them in his life, BUT he pays a price in fear and anxiety every time he visits them. He worries they'll find out, AND learn that he's been lying. In what has to be a fit of irony, another friend was out of the closet as gay, then came out as bisexual. His gay friends rejected him so quickly I thought he had body odor, but his straight friends who already accepted something different didn't seem to care.

Maybe that grandmother who you are convinced will tell you that now you burn in hell, would really just have faith that her god will be loving and merciful, or that you'll eventually come to her way of thinking. It may be that someone apparently laid-back will have the WORST reaction. I'd just stick with the advice that this is about a personal decision, and not a crusade to disprove or challenge their life.


1MileCrash & Jasongreat: I'll be frank where Gokul was police... take it to PM guys, or make a new thread... don't get this one locked because you can't stay on topic.

 

[nismaratwork]

Agree!
Sort of...I think we’re talking past each other, basically saying the same thing, but in different "frameworks":

1) The Big Bang and the evolution of Universe.

2) The possible evolution of different life forms and level of intelligence.

3) The odds in "Lottery of Life" for you being you.​

There are enormous amounts of "peculiar coincidences" for life to arise on planet Earth, 3.5 billion years ago. But if we put these "peculiar coincidences" in the light of the fact that we know that there are at least 9 billion trillion other stars out there, and that most of them have several orbiting planets, and today 518 of these exoplanets has already been detected = the "strangeness" drops dramatically.

At 2 Dec 2010 Felisa Wolfe-Simon at NASA, announced that they have discovered a new form of life, the GFAJ-1 bacterium, that in lack of the usual phosphorus use arsenic in their DNA (normally toxic), which means that the normal chemical compounds of life as we know it on Earth is not mandatory = the "strangeness" drops even more.Thus far no one can prove or disapprove that the Universe is infinite (most cosmologist think it is), but the possibility is there = "strangeness" is a dead parrot.

Therefore, as pointed out, life itself as a "phenomena" is not "strange" at all. One day we will (most) probably find out that the "life process" is as "natural" as when a protostar ignite at 10 million kelvins.

If there are other civilizations out there, absolutely nothing indicates that we are the most advanced. On the contrary, a majority are probably millions of years ahead of us.

Could there be real "Disney Worlds" out there? Where everyone looks like Angelina Jolie & Brad Pitt with the intelligence of Einstein², and fly on their private unicorn to work...?

I have absolutely no idea. But I imagine that the chances they look like green slime with the intelligence of Einstein¹⁰ is probably equal. It really doesn’t bother me.

What I’m talking about is an understanding and appreciation for having the enormous luck of being alive as a consciousness human on this Pale Blue Dot.

The combinations of your mother’s eggs & father’s sperms during one year of "activity" alone are approx 20 billions, i.e. there could have been many many different "mathematicsma", but it was you.

This is nothing but pure chance and maybe we should give it a thought now and then... and realize that paradise is right under our feet (even if it’s a terrible mess now and then).

That’s all.

OK, I understand what you mean. I guess I tend to focus on the most basic elements before I consider lifestyle, but you have a very good point. I for one, am glad that I'm not a lamprey!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I for one, am glad that I'm not a lamprey!

Imagine an xterrestrial civilization of lampreys with the intelligence of Einstein¹⁰... and they ARE coming!

[PLAIN]http://www.cnsweb.org/digestvertebrates/Photos/LampreyPacificMouth%20CL04_1c.jpg

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

()

 

[nismaratwork]

Imagine an xterrestrial civilization of lampreys with the intelligence of Einstein¹⁰... and they ARE coming!

[PLAIN]http://www.cnsweb.org/digestvertebrates/Photos/LampreyPacificMouth%20CL04_1c.jpg

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

()

Oh man... You find the best pictures. At least I know what I'll be having a nightmare about tonight...

 

[Borek]

Oh man... You find the best pictures. At least I know what I'll be having a nightmare about tonight...

I can only sympathize, I have this recurring dream about eating leeches

 

[DevilsAvocado]

HAHAHAHALOLOLOLMAO! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Best 'smile' ever!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Lamprey Saucer!

 

[nismaratwork]

I can only sympathize, I have this recurring dream about eating leeches

Oh wow... I'm, sorry man. REALLY sorry!

That is an amazing smiley however.

DA: Ha!

 

[Max™]

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

I love Feynman quotes, such a wonderful mix of brilliance with absurdity.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Richard Feynman used to go up to people all the time and he'd say "You won't believe what happened to me today... you won't believe what happened to me" and people would say "What?" and he'd say "Absolutely nothing". Because we humans believe that everything that happens to us is special and significant. And that — and Carl Sagan wrote beautifully about that in The Demon-Haunted World — that is much of the source of religion. Everything that happens is unusual and I expect that the likelihood that Richard and I ever would've met. If you think about all the variables: the probability that we were in the same place at the same time, ate breakfast the same. Whatever. It's zero. Every event that happens has small probability... but it happens and then when it happens; if it's weird, if you dream one million nights and it's nonsense but one night you dream that your friend is going to break his leg and the next day he breaks his arm... *sound of revelation* So the really thing that physics tell us about the universe is that it's big, rare event happens all the time — including life — and that doesn't mean it's special.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&hd=1"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="640" height="385">
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ImvlS8PLIo&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param>
<param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7ImvlS8PLIo&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed>
</object>

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I can only sympathize, I have this recurring dream about eating leeches

You see Borek? If you have one million dreams about eating leeches it’s nonsense. You’ve got to trust science on this!

... even though I feel sympathy for your 'reactions' ... :yuck:

 

[lisab]

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!

I love Feynman quotes, such a wonderful mix of brilliance with absurdity.

Can you imagine actually having ARW 357 on your car's license plate?! The value of your car would sky rocket! Well...if only to a very small, dare-I-say select few potential buyers...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Bidding!

 

[Chi Meson]

SatansGuacamole is quickly becoming my favorite PF member.

[Did I pronounce that correctly?]

 

[nismaratwork]

SatansGuacamole is quickly becoming my favorite PF member.

[Did I pronounce that correctly?]

:rofl:

That's going to be a PF classic quote, I predict.

 

[Max™]

Can you imagine actually having ARW 357 on your car's license plate?! The value of your car would sky rocket! Well...if only to a very small, dare-I-say select few potential buyers...

Would be an interesting request for a plate number, embarrassingly geeky as well.

 

[mugaliens]

Can you imagine actually having ARW 357 on your car's license plate?

I'm sorry, but no. I am incapable of imagining any sort of thing.

"Air Refueling Wing? Is that what it stands for?

 

[Char. Limit]

I'm sorry, but no. I am incapable of imagining any sort of thing.

"Air Refueling Wing? Is that what it stands for?

It's the license plate mentioned by Richard Feynman in a famous quote by him.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I stopped going to church when I was little because I just didn't like it. Since my mom is not a very devout christian she did not care. She also never explained much to me about religion, I was just told I was christian and that's what I told people if asked. Sometime in grade school a girl in my class told me that I was not a true christian unless I believed Jesus was born of a virgin and sacraficed himself for my sins. my response was basically "Oh... Seriously? Well then I guess I'm not christian."
Currently I call myself "agnostic" and most people would probably consider me "atheist". I never really spoke to my family about my beliefs and I've never had any issues regarding it. Then again my family is not very close so it was easy to just not discuss it.
So that's my experience as a heathen in a christian family for what ever it is worth.

 

[KingNothing]

Honestly, I wish you the best. There are many things we can't change - the reactions of others being one of them. If they don't react supportively, all you can really do is remember that you did the right thing, and that's that.

 

[nismaratwork]

I stopped going to church when I was little because I just didn't like it. Since my mom is not a very devout christian she did not care. She also never explained much to me about religion, I was just told I was christian and that's what I told people if asked. Sometime in grade school a girl in my class told me that I was not a true christian unless I believed Jesus was born of a virgin and sacraficed himself for my sins. my response was basically "Oh... Seriously? Well then I guess I'm not christian."
Currently I call myself "agnostic" and most people would probably consider me "atheist". I never really spoke to my family about my beliefs and I've never had any issues regarding it. Then again my family is not very close so it was easy to just not discuss it.
So that's my experience as a heathen in a christian family for what ever it is worth.

Hmmm, I like your approach, but I'm sorry about your family.

 

[andiamaj1431]

i happened to be raised in a jehovahs witness household, and although my father was a non believer, when i told them i no longer had faith in god, well, let's just say, 3 months ago, i was in new jersey, now, i am live in florida with my atheist father and his chritsian wife, all i can say is, choose your words and actions wisely my friend, I am just 17 btw

 

[DoggerDan]

I think most people are predisposed to believe one way or the other, although neither has much of anything to do with one's brilliance or lack thereof.

At 2.3% of the world's population, it's definitely a minority belief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Demographics