Indiana Jones and nuking the fridge survival

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the plausibility of Indiana Jones surviving a nuclear blast by hiding in a refrigerator, as depicted in "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull." Participants explore various aspects of nuclear physics, radiation exposure, and the physical integrity of the refrigerator in the context of a nuclear explosion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the realism of the scene, noting that the concept of a lead-lined refrigerator is implausible and that the character's survival is unlikely due to the physical forces involved in the explosion.
  • Others argue that if the refrigerator were indeed lead-lined and hermetically sealed, it could potentially provide some protection against radiation, although the specifics of radiation shielding are debated.
  • One participant suggests that the acute radiation dose required to cause immediate death is significantly higher than what Indy would likely receive, proposing that he might not suffer from radiation sickness.
  • Concerns are raised about the thermal effects of the blast, with some arguing that a refrigerator would not adequately shield against the intense heat of a nuclear explosion.
  • Participants discuss the mechanics of the refrigerator being thrown by the blast, with some asserting that the impact from the fall would likely be fatal regardless of radiation exposure.
  • There is mention of historical data regarding radiation exposure from nuclear tests, with some participants referencing the survival of individuals in trenches during tests as a point of comparison.
  • Several participants highlight the lack of specific details regarding the thickness of the lead lining and the materials used in typical refrigerators, which complicates the analysis of the scene's plausibility.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus on the plausibility of survival in the scenario. While some find the radiation shielding argument somewhat plausible, others strongly contest the feasibility of surviving the physical forces involved in the explosion and subsequent fall.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the absence of specific measurements for lead thickness, the unknown conditions of the refrigerator's construction, and the lack of detailed calculations regarding radiation exposure and thermal effects.

  • #31
mauricem said:
Can we determine how far away he was from the explosion using a plume height of between 30 to 40 feet...

The plume height will be in thousands of feet, not sure if you missed that. Early in the blast it would probably be in the range of 1000-2000 ft, but it would rise to a final height of maybe 30,000 ft.
 
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  • #32
mauricem said:
I did hit a snag. According to Wikipedia, a kT explosion would result in Thermal radiation effective ground range of 2000 m. Meaning Jones would literally be standing in the middle of a firestorm. He would have to be at least 4000 m away just to get away with third-degree burns. So, we can assume he was immediately burned to a crisp when he got out of the fridge?

Fortunately (unfortunately?) no. The effective range of the primary thermal radiation is one thing, but that radiation ends within seconds (as the pure explosion plasma extends and covered by the much colder mushroom cloud). After that the temperature and the thermal radiation converges to the temperature of the environment, which will be much less and - depending on the distance - maybe safe.

Other point is, that the upstream of the nuke will suck in fresh air on ground level which will start cooling the temperature rapidly.

When Mr Jones got out of the fridge some plants on the ground were still on fire (but not destroyed entirely by the previous thermal radiation). This possibly means inconvenient but still survivable conditions.

Ps.: I still think that the distance of the town to the nuke was more than few hundred meters. I understand that this not fits with the effects of a historically correct 20kt bomb in the assumed range, but in case I have to choice the field of the error between historical and observed (erm...) then I will accept the observed and assume the historical error :-)
 
  • #33
Rive, my man. I hadn't thought in terms of time. You just saved my post. What distance do you think the town was from the blast? I'm open to suggestions.
 
  • #34
Prefect breakdown. Thats exactly what I was missing. I did think he was traveling the speed of sound, but thought that would mean he was going the same speed throughout. That would mean he was traveling at amazing rate of speed. Hitting a brick wall at 100mph would be pretty nasty. Assuming, of course, a lead fridge could even fly. ;)
 
  • #35
Mech_Engineer said:
The plume height will be in thousands of feet, not sure if you missed that. Early in the blast it would probably be in the range of 1000-2000 ft, but it would rise to a final height of maybe 30,000 ft.
Missed some zeros. Thanks MechEngineer.
 
  • #36
The initial acceleration figure you are giving is assuming all the force is a single jerk. Fluid mechanics (which is the force exerted on the fridge) don't work that way.

During the passing of the blast wave, the fridge would lift due to surface effects, and until it lifted, the fridge likely tip, since one could assume its friction force would easily overcome skidding. Once it lifts, it would have sail effects propel it horizontally.

The fridge, due to aerodynamic effects, would present is smallest surface to the direction of travel, so it would end up horizontal.

On the landing, the horizontal velocity would not be counted; the vertical speed (mostly from the aerodynamic surface lift while the fridge was still on the ground) would be the force there.

At no time in all of this would there be great forces; hitting the ground would be like a fall from the fridge's maximum height.
 
  • #37
wizwom said:
it would have sail effects propel it horizontally.
It's a solid, compact, and very dense (lead-lined and filled with a human) object. Sail effects are not sufficient to explain its movement.

wizwom said:
The fridge, due to aerodynamic effects, would present is smallest surface to the direction of travel, so it would end up horizontal.
That is not how aerodynamic effects work. End-on is unstable. It will actually tend to present its broadest side to the direction force.

Anyone who has tried to handle a canoe in a stiff wind knows this. It takes work to keep a canoe pointed into the wind.
 
  • #38
DaveC426913 said:
It's a solid, compact, and very dense (lead-lined and filled with a human) object. Sail effects are not sufficient to explain its movement.

That is not how aerodynamic effects work. End-on is unstable. It will actually tend to present its broadest side to the direction force.

Anyone who has tried to handle a canoe in a stiff wind knows this. It takes work to keep a canoe pointed into the wind.
The canoe in the wind is a differential fluid mechanics problem, another bird entirely.

The mass to area consideration is only important in determining the acceleration, not in determining the force. The only forces that a fluid can exert on a body are sail forces and differential pressure forces.
 
  • #39
mauricem said:
I guess not an analysis since that was done by overthinkingit.com. I just want to make sure some of my math holds up. I'll break that out of the synopsis for ease of viewing.

A 20kT nuclear bomb (Based on the 1957 Operation Plumbomb testing) would emit 10 rem of high energy gamma radiation at 300m. 1 cm of lead would provide a 50% drop. The calculation of rem is based on Rive's comment even though it's nuch larger. I admit I can't find a reliable gamma radiation exposure calculator like Hologram0110 suggested.

A body flying at 38.32 m/s feels a force of 46.2 G.

Hitting the ground at that speed would be like hitting a brick wall going 60 mph (thanks QuantumPion)

The college history class is a joke, but the record is 14 minutes.

I did hit a snag. According to Wikipedia, a kT explosion would result in Thermal radiation effective ground range of 2000 m. Meaning Jones would literally be standing in the middle of a firestorm. He would have to be at least 4000 m away just to get away with third-degree burns. So, we can assume he was immediately burned to a crisp when he got out of the fridge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions

Thanks for everyone's advice and help. I'll summarize what I need to change from the last post based on feedback.

Indy is accelerated by the blast and then follow a projectile trajectory. For most of the flight he is weightless. (Thanks Mech Engineer)

He's traveling at terminal speed of the blast wave, close to 150-200 mi/hr (70-90 m/s). (Thanks Mech Engineer)

He hits the ground like hitting a brick wall at 100 mi/hr (Thanks Mech Engineer). I've found several reports of people surviving 100 mph crashes into walls. Some even had minor injuries without seat belts, so it's possible for him to survive it. Admittedly, a car is a lot safer than a lead box, but it's possible.

The plume height would rise to a final height of 30,000 ft (Thanks Mech Engineer).

The area around Indiana as he gets out of the fridge is 93 F (highest temperature of Nye County Nevada). Radiation from the explosion ends within seconds (as the pure explosion plasma extends and covered by the much colder mushroom cloud). After that the temperature and the thermal radiation converges to the temperature of the environment and the upstream of the nuke sucks in fresh air on ground level. I'm assuming this would also keep the exterior of the fridge cool. (Thanks Rive)
 
  • #40
Indiana Jones was a pill that was much easier to swallow when Lucas chalked it up to divine power. You never hear anyone debate how the Ark melted everyone's faces off, or the knight that guarded the Grail was able to live for hundreds of years. Man, sometimes I miss the '80's.
 
  • #41
Someone give daric an award of some kind, because he's dead on; and I was one of the ones trying to analyze the scene. You reminded me that some things are just meant to be accepted.
 
  • #42
daric soldar said:
Indiana Jones was a pill that was much easier to swallow when Lucas chalked it up to divine power.

Though I guess in this case, it would be ET power. :smile:
 
  • #43
gulfcoastfella said:
Someone give daric an award of some kind, because he's dead on; and I was one of the ones trying to analyze the scene. You reminded me that some things are just meant to be accepted.

An award will hardly be necessary. But I could certainly use some help when I take my first introductory Nuclear Engineering course in the fall :biggrin:

DaveC426913 said:
Though I guess in this case, it would be ET power. :smile:

And if you've heard of the ludicrous "re-imagining" of the TMNT film by Michael Bay, by the same token you could say it was "Turtle Power".
 
  • #44
Daric, of course the fun of watching these films is not asking questions and enjoy the film. When Lucas said he had scientific evidence it was possible I began to wonder if I was missing something. Thanks to the gracious help of this forum, the question was answered. While it's unlikely, it is possible with some luck and impossible odds.

Anyway, I finally got around to making the infographic this weekend and I'd love your thoughts. In my blog post I gave special mention to the members that were the most patient with my ridiculous question. I learned a ton about nuclear physics and thanks for not making me feel stupid. :)
 

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  • #45
That is an awesome infographic mauricem. I love infographics.
 
  • #46
DaveC426913 said:
That is an awesome infographic mauricem. I love infographics.
Thanks Dave! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
 
  • #47
DaveC426913 said:
That is an awesome infographic mauricem. I love infographics.

Dave, I'm sorry I didn't list you in the acknowledgments before! I knew I forgot someone.
 
  • #49
All of you are forgetting the fact that Indy's Grail-enhanced. After The Last Crusade, he's more than a man. That god stuff's got to be worth 1 thousand rem, easy. :biggrin:

Sheesh, so much thought about the physical plausibility of an escapist fantasy (a bad instalment in the series, at that). What's next, a serious debate on the biological plausibility of instant tissue regeneration by water held in two-millennium old wooden cup? :smile: