Information Paradox in Black Holes and BSM

[seazal]

If they could solve the information loss paradox in black hole
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

What other related problems it could solve in Beyond Standard Models or unsolved quantum questions, etc.?

If the LHC could no longer detect new particles, could beyond the standard models be related to information processing. Does new physics have to rely solely on new particles, or could it be based on how information is conveyed not only in black holes but in other fields like the Ads/CFT correspondence?

What is the official term for this BSM area of physics where particles were not involved but information?

My (false?) thinking now is information doesn't necessarily involved new particles that could be detected at the LHC, but complex bits of patterns that needs new kinds of detectors to detect. Please correct my thinking if it is wrong and why.

 

[atyy]

Most thinking is that black hole information paradox involves energies at which a new theory of quantum gravity is needed, which is way beyond the energies of the LHC.

"Information" is not different from "particles" in the informal sense in which both terms are used. "Particles" refer to particular quantum states, and no information loss refers to the unitary time evolution of quantum states, so they are really both referring to the same thing.

 

[seazal]

Most thinking is that black hole information paradox involves energies at which a new theory of quantum gravity is needed, which is way beyond the energies of the LHC.

"Information" is not different from "particles" in the informal sense in which both terms are used. "Particles" refer to particular quantum states, and no information loss refers to the unitary time evolution of quantum states, so they are really both referring to the same thing.

In physics, how do you define "information"? Can't it be any processing occurring anywhere. For example. Our brain is very complex with all the neuronal activities. Out of it could come emergence where information processing occurs in some Ads/CFT correspondence in addition to the brain. So can't you refer to it as information occurring elsewhere? Or state the new beyond standard model is really about information occurring in the Ads/CFT correspondence. How do you vocalize this the right way?

 

[atyy]

In physics, how do you define "information"? Can't it be any processing occurring anywhere. For example. Our brain is very complex with all the neuronal activities. Out of it could come emergence where information processing occurs in some Ads/CFT correspondence in addition to the brain. So can't you refer to it as information occurring elsewhere? Or state the new beyond standard model is really about information occurring in the Ads/CFT correspondence. How do you vocalize this the right way?

There are many ways. In the context of the black hole information paradox, it refers to the unitary evolution of the quantum state.

 

[seazal]

There are many ways. In the context of the black hole information paradox, it refers to the unitary evolution of the quantum state.

So how the black hole information paradox solution can also offer solution to the quantum measurement problem or other beyond the standard models depends on the solution to the information paradox itself? (the possibilities listed below). I was wondering if it can solve the naturalness puzzle too or the source of the standard model parameters or constants of nature. There is just no connection?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

" * Information is irretrievably lost[10][11]

• Advantage: Seems to be a direct consequence of relatively non-controversial calculation based on semiclassical gravity.
  Disadvantage: Violates unitarity. (Banks, Susskind and Peskin argued that it also violates energy-momentum conservation or locality, but the argument does not seem to be correct for systems with a large number of degrees of freedom.[12])

• Information gradually leaks out during the black-hole evaporation[10][11]
  Advantage: Intuitively appealing because it qualitatively resembles information recovery in a classical process of burning.
  Disadvantage: Requires a large deviation from classical and semiclassical gravity (which do not allow information to leak out from the black hole) even for macroscopic black holes for which classical and semiclassical approximations are expected to be good approximations.

• Information suddenly escapes out during the final stage of black-hole evaporation[10][11]
  Advantage: A significant deviation from classical and semiclassical gravity is needed only in the regime in which the effects of quantum gravity are expected to dominate.
  Disadvantage: Just before the sudden escape of information, a very small black hole must be able to store an arbitrary amount of information, which violates the Bekenstein bound.

• Information is stored in a Planck-sized remnant[10][11]
  Advantage: No mechanism for information escape is needed.
  Disadvantage: To contain the information from any evaporated black hole, the remnants would need to have an infinite number of internal states. It has been argued that it would be possible to produce an infinite amount of pairs of these remnants since they are small and indistinguishable from the perspective of the low-energy effective theory.[13]

• Information is stored in a large remnant[14][15]
  Advantage: The size of remnant increases with the size of the initial black hole, so there is no need for an infinite number of internal states.
  Disadvantage: Hawking radiation must stop before the black hole reaches the Planck size, which requires a violation of semi-classical gravity at a macroscopic scale.

• Information is stored in a baby universe that separates from our own universe.[11][16]
  Advantage: This scenario is predicted by the Einstein–Cartan theory of gravity which extends general relativity to matter with intrinsic angular momentum (spin). No violation of known general principles of physics is needed.
  Disadvantage: It is difficult to test the Einstein–Cartan theory because its predictions are significantly different from general-relativistic ones only at extremely high densities.

• Information is encoded in the correlations between future and past[17][18]
  Advantage: Semiclassical gravity is sufficient, i.e., the solution does not depend on details of (still not well understood) quantum gravity.
  Disadvantage: Contradicts the intuitive view of nature as an entity that evolves with time."

 

[seazal]

So how the black hole information paradox solution can also offer solution to the quantum measurement problem or other beyond the standard models depends on the solution to the information paradox itself? (the possibilities listed below). I was wondering if it can solve the naturalness puzzle too or the source of the standard model parameters or constants of nature. There is just no connection?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

" * Information is irretrievably lost[10][11]

• Advantage: Seems to be a direct consequence of relatively non-controversial calculation based on semiclassical gravity.
  Disadvantage: Violates unitarity. (Banks, Susskind and Peskin argued that it also violates energy-momentum conservation or locality, but the argument does not seem to be correct for systems with a large number of degrees of freedom.[12])

• Information gradually leaks out during the black-hole evaporation[10][11]
  Advantage: Intuitively appealing because it qualitatively resembles information recovery in a classical process of burning.
  Disadvantage: Requires a large deviation from classical and semiclassical gravity (which do not allow information to leak out from the black hole) even for macroscopic black holes for which classical and semiclassical approximations are expected to be good approximations.

• Information suddenly escapes out during the final stage of black-hole evaporation[10][11]
  Advantage: A significant deviation from classical and semiclassical gravity is needed only in the regime in which the effects of quantum gravity are expected to dominate.
  Disadvantage: Just before the sudden escape of information, a very small black hole must be able to store an arbitrary amount of information, which violates the Bekenstein bound.

• Information is stored in a Planck-sized remnant[10][11]
  Advantage: No mechanism for information escape is needed.
  Disadvantage: To contain the information from any evaporated black hole, the remnants would need to have an infinite number of internal states. It has been argued that it would be possible to produce an infinite amount of pairs of these remnants since they are small and indistinguishable from the perspective of the low-energy effective theory.[13]

• Information is stored in a large remnant[14][15]
  Advantage: The size of remnant increases with the size of the initial black hole, so there is no need for an infinite number of internal states.
  Disadvantage: Hawking radiation must stop before the black hole reaches the Planck size, which requires a violation of semi-classical gravity at a macroscopic scale.

• Information is stored in a baby universe that separates from our own universe.[11][16]
  Advantage: This scenario is predicted by the Einstein–Cartan theory of gravity which extends general relativity to matter with intrinsic angular momentum (spin). No violation of known general principles of physics is needed.
  Disadvantage: It is difficult to test the Einstein–Cartan theory because its predictions are significantly different from general-relativistic ones only at extremely high densities.

• Information is encoded in the correlations between future and past[17][18]
  Advantage: Semiclassical gravity is sufficient, i.e., the solution does not depend on details of (still not well understood) quantum gravity.
  Disadvantage: Contradicts the intuitive view of nature as an entity that evolves with time."

Who made the list above. Why didn't the postulated solutions include the holographic principle? Is it not a valid solution but only a correspondence (concept of duality)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

"This work showed that the black hole information paradox is resolved when quantum gravity is described in an unusual string-theoretic way assuming the string-theoretical description is complete, unambiguous and non-redundant.[16] The space-time in quantum gravity would emerge as an effective description of the theory of oscillations of a lower-dimensional black-hole horizon, and suggest that any black hole with appropriate properties, not just strings, would serve as a basis for a description of string theory. "

Also de_sitter space seems to be not viable in light of recent arguments about it by experts. But since quantum mechanics is not bound by spacetime, but has nonlocal correlated effects. What kind of sitter space that is nonlocal at the same time. Couldn't this be made a real holographic surface? I know the holographic principle only works in anti_de sitter space and doesn't seem to work in de_sitter space. But does any of them integrate the QM spacelessness at all?

The gist of it is simply. What kind of sitter or space compatible with QM that can be made a real holographic surface of lower dimensions which can store the information of everyday objects? Arxiv references please.

 

[Demystifier]

Why didn't the postulated solutions include the holographic principle?

Because the holographic principle, by itself, does not say what exactly happens with the information. It says that information is preserved (so the first option in the list is ruled out), but how exactly that happens is not clear. Most models based on the holographic principle are variants of the possibility two (information gradually leaks out), but some of the other possibilities are possible too.

 

[seazal]

Because the holographic principle, by itself, does not say what exactly happens with the information. It says that information is preserved (so the first option in the list is ruled out), but how exactly that happens is not clear. Most models based on the holographic principle are variants of the possibility two (information gradually leaks out), but some of the other possibilities are possible too.

What way can particle accelerator like the LHC helped with understanding more about the holographic principles?

If absolutely none. Then if no further large particle accelerator would be built larger than the LHC, then at least physicists can mull over the holographic principles instead of naturalness? Or is holographic principle and naturalness related via strings that if you give up on naturalness, then you give up on the holographic principle too?

 

[Demystifier]

Holographic principle and naturalness are unrelated. LHC probably cannot say much about the holographic principle.

 

[seazal]

Holographic principle and naturalness are unrelated. LHC probably cannot say much about the holographic principle.

But everyday it's becoming more likely and possible that naturalness by equations can't explain any of the standard model parameters or constants (remember Hossenfelder almost gave up with them, hence "lost in math")

And it is also becoming more likely symmetry like gauge symmetry is not fundamental. So standard model parameters can be described by dynamic or adaptive laws (somewhat but not similar to Lee Smolin natural selection theory).

Eventually it may all be information processing in some holographic principle creating all the standard model parameters (not in anti-de sitter but de-sitter space). Here holographic principle and naturalness are related. Why not?