Intuition regarding Riemann curvature tensor

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Riemann curvature tensor, focusing on the significance of its components, particularly the second derivatives of the metric and the squares of the first derivatives. Participants explore the implications of these components in the context of curvature and coordinate choices, examining both mathematical and conceptual aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the second derivatives in the Riemann curvature tensor are essential because they cannot be eliminated locally by a choice of coordinates.
  • Others argue that the first derivatives indicate directions and that curvature can vary in different directions, which is important for understanding the overall behavior of curvature.
  • A later reply elaborates that in Riemann normal coordinates, the first derivatives are zero at the origin, but as one moves away from the origin, these first derivatives become non-zero and vary with direction, highlighting their necessity in capturing curvature behavior.
  • Another participant notes that if the second derivatives are zero at the origin, it implies constant first derivatives in the neighborhood, reinforcing the relationship between first and second derivatives in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the role and significance of the first and second derivatives in the Riemann curvature tensor, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the behavior of derivatives in Riemann normal coordinates and the implications of their values at the origin versus away from it, which are not fully resolved.

Hill
Messages
794
Reaction score
608
TL;DR
"Why" there are terms quadratic in first derivatives of metric?
The Riemann curvature tensor contains second derivatives of metric and squares of the first derivatives. The second derivatives have to be there because they are the ones that cannot be eliminated locally by a choice of coordinates. But other than being a mathematical artifact, is there a meaning for the squares of the first derivatives to be there?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The first derivatives tell you directions. Curvature can be different in different directions. And the curvature in one direction can change as you move in a different direction
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hill and vanhees71
Hill said:
The second derivatives have to be there because they are the ones that cannot be eliminated locally by a choice of coordinates.
If you look at how this actually works, you find that in Riemann normal coordinates, which are the ones that eliminate everything that can be eliminated by a choice of coordinates, the first derivatives are zero at the origin of coordinates, i.e., at the point the coordinates are "centered" on. So at that point, the first derivatives indeed do not appear at all in the Riemann tensor.

But as soon as you move away from the origin, the first derivatives are no longer zero (because the second derivatives weren't zero at the origin), and they will be different depending on which direction you move. So you do need them to capture the complete behavior once you are away from the origin.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hill and Dale
PeterDonis said:
But as soon as you move away from the origin, the first derivatives are no longer zero (because the second derivatives weren't zero at the origin)
lndeed, a zero second derivatives w.r.t. a coordinate basis at the origin, would mean constant first derivatives in a neighborhood of the origin, but first derivatives by definition vanish at the origin in Riemann normal coordinates centered on it.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
1K