History Is American Terrorism Justified by Their History of Unethical Actions?

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The discussion centers on the ethical implications of American foreign policy and its historical actions, particularly in relation to military interventions and support for dictators. Participants highlight instances such as the U.S. collaboration with Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War, including the provision of chemical weapons technology, as examples of hypocrisy regarding moral standards in warfare. The conversation also touches on the long-term consequences of U.S. military activities in regions like Vieques and the Pacific Islands, where local populations suffer from environmental and health issues due to nuclear testing. The debate raises questions about the justification of terrorism in light of America's own unethical actions throughout history. Ultimately, the thread critiques the selective moral judgments applied to different nations and groups.
  • #31
The Smoking Man said:
Just as a little jibe ... would you have preferred it if I had called the thread "Just How Many Americans Support Terrorism" and given all the states and their voting records that voted for bush? :biggrin:

Does it make any difference who one voted for? Is there any president over the last one hundred years under whose watch the US committed no acts that you could somehow find a way to label as "terrorist?"
 
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  • #32
American terrorism ?? how can be this peace loving, innocent, God fearing nation ever be invoved in anything like that ! :frown:
 
  • #33
russ_watters said:
Such attitudes are obsolete. Starting with the end of WWI and Wilson's 14 points (yes, they failed the first time), such nationalistic attitudes were cast aside by the western world and the result is the first real peace in the west in the history of the world. France and Germany are not fighting each other. Germany and Poland are not still arguing over WWII either. These countries recognize that the Germany of today is not the same Germany that existed in 1939. They recognize that countries evolve. You, clearly, do not.

I agree with you here Russ (this is such a rare event that when it happens, I like to point it out :biggrin:), in that looking back for more than 2 generations is a vendetta attitude which only brings in more trouble. Moreover, China might push a bit its "victim" image here because of others (the US, the EU) getting nervous with China's trading practices, and starts to get a bit finger pointed, so time for dressing up as a victim to change the subject. (just a wild guess of mine) And hitting on the head of their historical arch enemy, Japan, is always easy to do.

That said, misbehaviour of long ago often DOES play a crucial role in politics. For instance, it is almost incomprehensible that Turkey doesn't want to recognize the Armenian genocide of the beginning of the 20th century, even if it is one of the conditions that the EU has spelled out for its possible membership. What difference can it possibly make that your great grandfather did some atrocities ?
 
  • #34
russ_watters said:
It looks to me like you're just flooding - posting a whole lot of information without being willing to discuss any of the overall points. Your attempt at making a direct trail from WWII to Saddam to the Gulf War doesn't work: Saddam never used biological weapons, he used chemical weapons - weapons designed for use in WWI.
Then I have clearly failed to make you aware that the Geneva Conventions were altered to prevent the use of ALL agents including Chemical Weapons . Sorry:
Wikipedia said:
The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty to ban the use of chemical and biological weapons. It was signed at Geneva on June 17, 1925 and was entered into force on February 8, 1928.

It prohibits the use of chemical weapons and biological weapons, but has nothing to say about production, storage or transfer. It was in 1972 augmented with the Biological Weapons Convention and in 1993 with the Chemical Weapons Convention.

russ_watters said:
Regarding the pardoning of those soldiers - again, that's something that was unquestionably wrong. But I think part of what's going on here is you're reacting to the current climate in China, which is very anti-Japan because it is looking back at WWII. You're showing the same history-based hate that motivates terrorism! If that is allowed to continue, Japan and China may soon find themselves at war with each other.
Then sorry, I have again failed to make you aware that the 1993 weapons convention was used in 1997 to enable China to force Japan to clean up the mass of Chemical Weapons left there since Nanking and before. To those who experienced war, this is not just an argument about 'text books' which is indeed a focus at the moment but of a much deeper problem.

When we look upon the wars of nations prior to this, the finding of a bronze sword is considered an archeological wonder and the product is put on display in a museum.

Well, I am sorry to have to tell you but sites like http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/terror.htm are just a few minutes away by train for me.

For you, the war ended in 1945/6 and you have little to worry about.

For you, the pardon and subsequent cover-up have really had little effect other than to place your country at the top when it comes to the manufacture and deployment of illegal weapons.

In China, that cover-up has produced deniability on behalf of the Japanese that has hindered compensations, clean-ups and repatriation of looted materials for over 60 years now.

It is only after 50 years that most of the proof of what has happened has been revealed to the world because of the Freedom of Information Act. The amount of information held by the US Military as 'state secrets' in that time is truly staggering and the implications for what it means to the Chinese people is truly amazing for the scale of the injustice perpetrated upon them and the world.

Are you aware for instance that 'plague animals' used by the Japanese during the war were not destroyed at the end of the war but released into the wild?

We can only speculate on what some of the diseases were. We know they played with Bubonic Plague becasue the rats of the area still display the antibodies. Glanders was another that we find in 'Rotten-Leg Village' (Zhejiang) because we still have victims. The catalogue of diseases so far identified: Bubonic Plague, Anthrax (including inhalation, skin and gastrointestinal types), Smallpox, Typhoid, Paratyphoid A and B, Tularemia, Cholera, Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever, Syphilis, Botulism, Brucellosis, Dysentery, Tetanus, Glanders, Tuberculosis, Yellow fever, Typhus, Tularemia, Gas Gangrene, Scarlet Sever, Songo, Diphtheria, Brysipelas, Selmonella, Infectious Jaundice, Undulant Fever, Epidemic Cerebrospinal Meningitis and Tick Encephalitis.

Well, here's a thought to ponder ... SARS originates near one of the many Units in China where plague animals were released. Is it a mutated virus that the Japanese were developing?

russ_watters said:
Such attitudes are obsolete. Starting with the end of WWI and Wilson's 14 points (yes, they failed the first time), such nationalistic attitudes were cast aside by the western world and the result is the first real peace in the west in the history of the world. France and Germany are not fighting each other. Germany and Poland are not still arguing over WWII either. These countries recognize that the Germany of today is not the same Germany that existed in 1939. They recognize that countries evolve. You, clearly, do not.
Yes, Europe is at peace with Germany.

Back in Sept 1999, two federal courts in New Jersey ruled in favor of a German company barring claims of a Slave laborer. Nonetheless, Germany and its industry recognized their responsibility and continued to negotiate.

Though the Nazi regime lost the war, German companies profited from Slave labor. German industrial wealth was 17 times larger After the war than in 1939 by using Slave laborers according to economic historian Dietrich Eichholz.

"We were treated worse than Slaves, you try to keep Saves alive. We were like sandpaper: used, thrown away and burnt with the garbage."

In August 2000, the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility and the Future" was created by the German Government and German companies in recognition of Germany's moral responsibility towards those subjected to Slave labour during the WWII. The Foundation was endowed with Slave Funds of $5.11 Billion Euros, provided in equal parts by the German government and about 6,000 companies of German Industry.

In late 2000, an ambitious Japanese Diet proposed a similar fund to compensate Slaves, closely patterned on the German example. Unfortunately, it went nowhere.

There is also a Polish-German Reconciliation Fund for Poles who were used as guinea pigs in pseudomedical experiments by the Nazis.

"I pay tribute to all those who were subjected to slave and forced labor under German rule, and in the name of the German people beg forgiveness," said Johannes Rau, German president in 2000, "We will not forget their suffering."

To date, Over 1.63 Million Slave victims have received compensation from Germany.

Even professed Neutral Nations like Sweden and Switzerland have had the courage to take a painful look back at their WWII record; 1.25 Billion Swiss Banks Settlement signed in 1999 by the Swiss banks.

In Germany, it is a crime to utter what is called "the Auschwitz lie" - denial of the death camps.

In schools, Germany has hammered students with anti-Nazi education and the concept of Zivilcourage.

German leaders consistently apologize for their past aggression in the clearest possible terms. Former Chancellor Willy Brandt once even fell to his knees at the site of the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising on Dec 7, 1970 in Poland in tribute with the utmost sincerity to those who had died there at the Nazi hands.

Germany has also made generous acts of atonement and has paid 88 Billions Mark in compensation and reparations to Jewish Holocaust victims and will spend another 20 Billions Mark by 2005.

In 1963, president Charles de Gaulle of France and chancellor Konrad Adenauer of West Germany signed a historic treaty which reconciled these historic enemies. Without this, it is doubtful whether the European Union (EU) could have been achieved.

On Jan. 21, 1997, a joint reconciliation treaty was signed that Germany apologized for Hitler's invasion of the former Czechoslovakia, and Czech expressed regrets for the postwar expulsion of 2.5 millions of Sudeten Germans.

Germany has also paid pensions to the Jews in Israel and U.S. who were living in Eastern Europe during WWII since 1995, and German-speaking Canadian Jews since 2003.

German has made January 27th a national Holocaust Remembrance Day for the victims of the Holocaust since 1996. The date was chosen to mark Jan. 27th, 1945, the day Soviet soldiers liberated the Auschwitz concentration camp.

On May 10, 2005 Germany opens a new Holocaust memorial south of the landmark Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, marking the 60th anniversary of the end of war. “Today we open a memorial that recalls Nazi Germany's worst, most terrible crime ..." said parliamentary president Wolfgang Thierse. He added Germany now "faces up to its history".

German students are also required to visit former concentration camps as part of their Holocaust studies.

German Government has bought a former labor camp near Berlin to open a memorial to commemorate Slave laborers in 2006.

German government has made displaying the Swastika and other Nazi symbols illegal in Germany. Now German politicians have called for Nazi symbols to be banned throughout Europe.

German government passed a bill to restrict rallies by neo-Nazis and allow courts to impose sentences of as much as 3 years in prison or a fine on anyone found guilty of approving, glorifying or justifying the Nazi regime in public.

German government has even offered its formal apology for the colonial-era massacre of Herero tribe in Namibia happened 100 years ago.

Oliver Raag is one of many Germans doing volunteer work in Israel to atone for the deeds of their parents and grandparents. She is a German geriatric nurse whose grandfather transported disabled Jews and other Germans to a gas chamber. "The more I learned about that period in German history, the more I wanted to come here to show that there are other Germans who are not like the Nazis,"

UN General Assembly held a special session marking 60th anniversary of liberation of Holocaust Nazi death camps for First Time. Kofi Annan said, "It is essential for all of us to remember, reflect on, and learn from what happened 60 years ago...".

"I express my shame over those who were murdered, and before those of you who have survived the hell of the concentration camps," said German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, "The vast majority of Germans alive today are NOT to blame for the Holocaust, but they DO bear a "Special Responsibility".

German Chancellor paid tribute at the entrance to Auschwitzand and promised that Germany will fulfill its "Moral Obligation" to keep alive the memory of Nazi's crimes.

Germany led a commemoration of 60th anniversary of the liberation of Nazis' Buchenwald Death Camp. "We cannot change History, but this country can learn a lot from the deepest shame of our History," German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder urged the world never to forget the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis, "I bow before you, the victims and their families."

On Mar 16, 2005 German Foreign Minister gave a speech for the "Remembering the Past, Shaping the Future" session and calls the Jerusalem's new Holocaust memorial "A place of 'Deep Shame' for every German, because the name of my country, Germany, is and will forever be inseparably linked to the Shoah, the ultimate crime against Humanity."

Speaking to a special joint sitting of parliament marking the 60 anniversary of the end of the war, Mr Köhler said: "We have the Responsibility to keep alive the memories of all the suffering ... We Germans look back with horror and shame ... "

German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder implied: Japan Can Learn From Germany saying postwar Berlin had won the respect of its neighbors in how it contended with its Nazi past.

However, attending the 60th anniversary of End of War in stark contrast to an earnest apology by German leader Gerhard Schroeder, at a press conference in Moscow, Koizumi said : Japan has done enough "Self-Examination".

Why Japanese wartime Apologies Fail - A German Perspective.

German expert: Japan needs to launch self-critical debate on History said Eberhard Sandschneider, Director of the Research Institute of the German Council on Foreign Relations.

While Japanese Yushukan Museum celebrates the Japanese suicidal fighting spirit, the Potsdam exhibit blames the Wehrmacht, Germany's army for bringing shame to the country.

Germany has chosen to examine their history in microscopic details and admit German culpability for the war. By contrast, Japan has long censored textbooks to conceal Japanese atrocities in China and Korea.

Germany has now earned back high respect of the world.

Japan must have the courage to do the same and earn back the respect of the world.
 
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  • #35
loseyourname said:
Does it make any difference who one voted for? Is there any president over the last one hundred years under whose watch the US committed no acts that you could somehow find a way to label as "terrorist?"
But that was my point.

I merely cut-and-pasted the title of Russ' thread and changed the word Moslem to American. (And fixed a spelling mistake.)

Russ stated himself that the survey given in the Moslem nations made no mention of the word 'terrorist', just acts that were labelled 'terrorist' AFTER the fact.

You just reaffirmed my observation that it CAN be done with every president over the last 100 years.

Thanks
:biggrin:
 
  • #36
The Smoking Man said:
Damn straight. Now we have to prosecute. Justice must be seen to be done.

Without this, the USA will never be able to take the moral high ground again.
...

...

again? Did I miss the first time?
 
  • #38
The Smoking Man said:
But that was my point.

I merely cut-and-pasted the title of Russ' thread and changed the word Moslem to American. (And fixed a spelling mistake.)

Russ stated himself that the survey given in the Moslem nations made no mention of the word 'terrorist', just acts that were labelled 'terrorist' AFTER the fact.

You just reaffirmed my observation that it CAN be done with every president over the last 100 years.

Thanks
:biggrin:

For the sake of argument let’s just take your point of view on this. I don’t agree with you but I want to move on to some other topics so let's just pretend that I agree for now.

So we agree that America is a nation of terrorist, we are ruthless killers who want to destroy the rest of the world. We deserve to have the terrorist attack and kill us in any way they see fit. Americans don’t even deserve to live.

So are you suggesting that America should be taken over by other countries? Should we voluntarily just hand our military over to and fall under the command of some other more benevolent nation and its people? What nation do you propose take over America? Which form of government should we adopt? What would the world do with the world’s largest stockpile of nuclear weapons? What kind of economy should be placed in with the new government? Should there just be extermination camps set up to execute all of the Americans?

I think that if we are like the terrorist that bombed the WTC or London then America needs a regime change. Any nation that supports terrorism needs to be brought down and the terrorist need to be killed.

So, now that we agree that America is FUBARed, what should be done?
 
  • #39
Townsend said:
For the sake of argument let’s just take your point of view on this. I don’t agree with you but I want to move on to some other topics so let's just pretend that I agree for now.

So we agree that America is a nation of terrorist, we are ruthless killers who want to destroy the rest of the world. We deserve to have the terrorist attack and kill us in any way they see fit. Americans don’t even deserve to live.

So are you suggesting that America should be taken over by other countries? Should we voluntarily just hand our military over to and fall under the command of some other more benevolent nation and its people? What nation do you propose take over America? Which form of government should we adopt? What would the world do with the world’s largest stockpile of nuclear weapons? What kind of economy should be placed in with the new government? Should there just be extermination camps set up to execute all of the Americans?

I think that if we are like the terrorist that bombed the WTC or London then America needs a regime change. Any nation that supports terrorism needs to be brought down and the terrorist need to be killed.

So, now that we agree that America is FUBARed, what should be done?
I see so now it is your turn to make 'absurd statements'?

You are using American reasoning which imperrils all the people who live in certain greographic area for the actions of the few.

I propose that it is the American people themselves that must take control of their government and prosecute them when they are shown to be deliberately deceptive.

I see the US population as being victims as much as the people of Iraq.

But then, this gets back to the problem we have discussed before as to who is responsible to whom ... Are the govering members of your country answerable to you or are you answerable to them?

Something is REALLY out of kilter over there when you can dog Clinton to death for lies over a BJ and you can just ignore all that has happened in the war in Iraq.

So, where is Ken Starr?
 
  • #40
The Smoking Man said:
But that was my point.

Your point in making the jab at states won by Bush was that no matter who they voted for, they'd be voting for a terrorist? Then why bring up states that voted for Bush?
 
  • #41
loseyourname said:
Your point in making the jab at states won by Bush was that no matter who they voted for, they'd be voting for a terrorist? Then why bring up states that voted for Bush?
That we can all use a poll or an election to our advantage.

Let's face it ... your election was not decided over foreign policy anyway.

It was decided by fundamentalist Christians who were called to the vote from the pulpit over some strange and wonderful domestic issues.
 
  • #42
The Smoking Man said:
I see so now it is your turn to make 'absurd statements'?

You are using American reasoning which imperrils all the people who live in certain greographic area for the actions of the few.

The majority of Americans is not a few. It was a majority who voted for Bush you know. I am only trying to agree with you for arguments sake. Perhaps you need to make yourself clear on what you mean to call America a terrorist nation.

I propose that it is the American people themselves that must take control of their government and prosecute them when they are shown to be deliberately deceptive.
I am an American and last time I check, this country is still based on popular sovereignty. My countrymen are happy without government so your point is worthless.

I see the US population as being victims as much as the people of Iraq.

But then, this gets back to the problem we have discussed befor as to who is responsible to whom ... Are the govering members of your country answerable to you or are you answerable to them?

The population is not the victim, it is the government...the people who disagree with the current actions of the government are actually in the minority.

Something is REALLY out of kilter over there when you can dog Clinton to death for lies over a BJ and you can just ignore all that has happened in the war in Iraq.

Well where are your solutions then man? Are you just one of those people who like to point out a problem but then offer no solutions?

So, where is Ken Star?

What is that suppose to mean?
 
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  • #43
The Smoking Man said:
Let's face it ... your election was not decided over foreign policy anyway.
What did it then? Why would I never vote for a loser like Kerry? You seem to know what did it so please do tell.

It was decided by fundamentalist Christians who were called to the vote from the pulpit over some strange and wonderful domestic issues.

Is that a fact? By fundamentalist Christians? :smile:You do not understand the political landscape of the United States all do you?
 
  • #44
Townsend said:
The majority of Americans is not a few. It was a majority who voted for Bush you know. I am only trying to agree with you for arguments sake. Perhaps you need to make yourself clear on what you mean to call America a terrorist nation.
You're not doing a good job. After a lame attempt, you have quickly devolved into devil's advocate.

Did I call America a terrorist nation or your administration ... There is a difference.
Townsend said:
I am an American and last time I check, this country is still based on popular sovereignty. My countrymen are happy without government so your point is worthless.
You're people are happy with 'truth, justice and the American way and still believe it to be just like the opening scenes of 'Superman' in the 50's and 60's.

There is also a certain amount of xeonophobia encouraged by the USA to discourage criticisms etc.

Why, for example is the USA of a position that the World Court should have jurisdiction over all the world but not America?

Who polices the self appointed policeman?

Townsend said:
The population is not the victim, it is the government...the people who disagree with the current actions of the government are actually in the minority.
Funny, many of the 'victims' ie. the families of the people who died in 9/11 have come out and condemned the government for actions taken and not taken with respect to their plight.

As far as Bush being a victim ... he had singularly the worst showing of any president in US history up to the day of 9/11 when he became an American 'hero' overnight.

Townsend said:
Well where are your solutions then man? Are you just one of those people who like to point out a problem but then offer no solutions?
Have Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tried in the world court. If you beleve them innocent, they will be exonerated and the rest of the world will have to STFU.

Do you believe in the impartiality of the world court?

Why did you pull out when you had your first decision against you regarding your activities in Nicaragua?

Townsend said:
What is that suppose to mean?

Just what do you think it means?

Clinto lied about a BJ. Bush lied about all the justifications for war resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands.

Why isn't Starr persuing Bush on these far more serious charges?
 
  • #45
The Smoking Man said:
You're not doing a good job. After a lame attempt, you have quickly devolved into devil's advocate.

Did I call America a terrorist nation or your administration ... There is a difference.
I don't know, you tell me...seems to me you are calling AMERICA and its people terrorist. Perhaps you need to change your tread title and your position.

You're people are happy with 'truth, justice and the American way and still believe it to be just like the opening scenes of 'Superman' in the 50's and 60's.
Are you trying to sound condescending? Pretending that America is that stupid? Come on...

There is also a certain amount of xeonophobia encouraged by the USA to discourage criticisms etc.

Why, for example is the USA of a position that the World Court should have jurisdiction over all the world but not America?
Why not? If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel.

Who polices the self appointed policeman?
If the world started taking more of the responsibility on without the aid of the US then we would not have to be the police that we are.

Funny, many of the 'victims' ie. the families of the people who died in 9/11 have come out and condemned the government for actions taken and not taken with respect to their plight.
Why is that funny to you? And what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

As far as Bush being a victim ... he had singularly the worst showing of any president in US history up to the day of 9/11 when he became an American 'hero' overnight.

You're giving me your biased subjective opinion as a fact now?

Have Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tried in the world court. If you beleve them innocent, they will be exonerated and the rest of the world will have to STFU.
What about the constitution? We cannot just hand over the President of the United States of America. But it is funny that you think we should and that would somehow fix something. What about the fact that he would only become a martyr for his cause? It is not a solution there TSM, but nice try.

Do you believe in the impartiality of the world court?
I don't care about the world court...never have never will...why should I?

Why did you pull out when you had your first decision against you regarding your activities in Nicaragua?

I don't anything about that...

Clinto lied about a BJ. Bush lied about all the justifications for war resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands.
That has not be established as a fact.

Why isn't Starr persuing Bush on these far more serious charges?

Because perhaps star is only concerned about selling magazines and not a political agenda?
 
  • #46
Townsend said:
Is that a fact? By fundamentalist Christians? :smile:You do not understand the political landscape of the United States all do you?
Or perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the wood.
 
  • #47
Art said:
Or perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the wood.

I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?

Regards
 
  • #48
Townsend said:
I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?
Or perhapse he's not talking directly about you. Just a thought
 
  • #49
Townsend said:
I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?

Regards
I'm not assuming anything at all about your personal beliefs. I am merely pointing out that often people on the outside looking in may have a better overall perspective than someone who lives closely day to day with all the individual plots sub-plots and personalities that go into making up american foreign policy.
 
  • #50
Smurf said:
Or perhapse he's not talking directly about you. Just a thought

Ah, I think I understand...

The people who are the christian fundamentalist are my friends and what not, so I don't seem them for what they are... :blushing: got it.

The problem with that is that I have lived in four states and been through the trenches with all kinds of people. Everyone of my neighbors is a Muslim as of right now. I am totally serious... I try to make friends but it is very difficult. Most of the Muslims are really smart so I wouldn't mind studying with them but they seem to not like me. I made one friend but for some reason he decided he didn't want to hang out after about the second time I was over at his apartment.

Perhaps I am too close to the wood but I am not sure. I have no friends who are deeply religious and I don't hang around anyone who is. Yet, many of my friends here, in Minnesota and California share my opinions.
 
  • #51
Art said:
I'm not assuming anything at all about your personal beliefs. I am merely pointing out that often people on the outside looking in may have a better overall perspective than someone who lives closely day to day with all the individual plots sub-plots and personalities that go into making up american foreign policy.


...got it...missed your point, sorry.
 
  • #52
Townsend said:
I don't know, you tell me...seems to me you are calling AMERICA and its people terrorist. Perhaps you need to change your tread title and your position.
If an American creates a thread called Iraq Terrorists, do you assume he means every living breathing human being in Iraq including those liberated by the USA?

Townsend said:
Are you trying to sound condescending? Pretending that America is that stupid? Come on...
LOL ... No Comment.

Townsend said:
Why not? If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel.
Great, so if I have the cash to buy a Glock, I have the right to knock off a liquor store because I have a gun? Puleeeeze.

Townsend said:
If the world started taking more of the responsibility on without the aid of the US then we would not have to be the police that we are.
Ummm ... Don't you get it? That is what the world HAS been saying.

Townsend said:
Why is that funny to you? And what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?
Because you stated that the Government of the USA was the victims when in reality, they were condemned by the relatives of the REAL victims and that the government position/popularity was actually HELPED by 9/11.

Townsend said:
You're giving me your biased subjective opinion as a fact now?
Well, apart from it actually BEING a fact, why is it that just a few lines up you have the right to state "If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel." And on other threads you make statements 'Do I have to get my own URL and quote myself'?

Townsend said:
What about the constitution? We cannot just hand over the President of the United States of America. But it is funny that you think we should and that would somehow fix something. What about the fact that he would only become a martyr for his cause? It is not a solution there TSM, but nice try.
Then you should be happy at the thought that you would be vindicated, right?

Townsend said:
I don't care about the world court...never have never will...why should I?

I don't anything about that...

Wikipedia said:
in Nicaragua v. United States the United States of America had previously accepted the Court's compulsory jurisdiction upon its creation in 1946 but withdrew its acceptance following the Court's judgment in 1984 that called on the United States to "cease and to refrain" from the "unlawful use of force" against the government of Nicaragua. In a split decision, the majority of the Court ruled the United States was "in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to use force against another state" and ordered the US pay reparations (see note 2), although it never did.

Townsend said:
That has not be established as a fact.

Since when is guilt the reason for having a trial? The reason for having a trial is to establish guilt. Was Clinton's Guilt established before or after the proceedings?

Townsend said:
Because perhaps star is only concerned about selling magazines and not a political agenda?
Oh, that's rich.
 
  • #53
The Smoking Man said:
If an American creates a thread called Iraq Terrorists, do you assume he means every living breathing human being in Iraq including those liberated by the USA?

That is an if that has not happened but if it did then I would assume that he means enough of the Iraqi people to be talking about the nation of Iraq.

Great, so if I have the cash to buy a Glock, I have the right to knock off a liquor store because I have a gun? Puleeeeze.

No, what are you talking about? If I was living in your house because I couldn't afford to take care of my self then I would have to agree to play by your rules. As it is, the world has not been able to prevent terrorism and is not taking the actions needed. As such to secure our nation against terrorism we are taking the action.

Ummm ... Don't you get it? That is what the world HAS been saying.
Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?

Because you stated that the Government of the USA was the victims when in reality, they were condemned by the relatives of the REAL victims and that the government position/popularity was actually HELPED by 9/11.
The people are the concern of the government...

Well, apart from it actually BEING a fact, why is it that just a few lines up you have the right to state "If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel." And on other threads you make statements 'Do I have to get my own URL and quote myself'?
I was stating my opinion not a fact. For instance, I think China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion that I am stating as an opinion, now compare that to. China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion but it is being stated as a fact.


Since when is guilt the reason for having a trial? The reason for having a trial is to establish guilt. Was Clinton's Guilt established before or after the proceedings?
The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
 
  • #54
Townsend said:
The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
You make yourself perfectly clear: the US is not answerable to any other state in the global community but may, on the other hand, do precisely as it pleases wherever it pleases.
 
  • #55
Townsend said:
The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
The world court unlike America does not seek to govern anybody. It's role is to administer justice. Do you have an issue with justice?
 
  • #56
Townsend said:
That is an if that has not happened but if it did then I would assume that he means enough of the Iraqi people to be talking about the nation of Iraq.
And if I substitute the word 'teddybears' for 'terrorists' then obviously I mean all the people of the USA. :biggrin:

Townsend said:
No, what are you talking about? If I was living in your house because I couldn't afford to take care of my self then I would have to agree to play by your rules. As it is, the world has not been able to prevent terrorism and is not taking the actions needed. As such to secure our nation against terrorism we are taking the action.
The Earth IS our house and until 1984, when the USA took exception to a ruling by the world court against them over Niceragua, you also believed in the 'House Rules'.

It appears you have now locked yourself in the Bathroom.

Townsend said:
Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?
Oh, you missed it ... The world supported your invasion if Afghanistan. It was when you yanked your men from there leaving 15,000 to search for the person who actually now admits to blowing up the WTC and stuck the remainder of your forces ... 10X the amount into a country Colin Powell stated in 2001 had been neutered.

Townsend said:
The people are the concern of the government...
Yeah ... and it's okay to outsource.

Townsend said:
I was stating my opinion not a fact. For instance, I think China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion that I am stating as an opinion, now compare that to. China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion but it is being stated as a fact.
Yeah ... and what am I doing?

Townsend said:
The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
Sure. I believe you have decided on a course of action that will effectively make you like the USSR of the 1960's ... a pariah.

You were locked out of the EU negotiations with Iran.

Iraq is now negotiating with Iran and has admitted fault in the war which by implication also admits they think you are right there with Saddam.
 
  • #57
Art said:
The world court unlike America does not seek to govern anybody. It's role is to administer justice. Do you have an issue with justice?
The Canadian approach:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1122070220401&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&pubid=968163964505&StarSource=email&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

Interesting their body count is 7 in Iraq ... 4 were killed by American 'friendly fire'. o:)

"For Canada, the mission marks a critical test of Ottawa's vaunted "3-D" approach to international affairs — defence, diplomacy and development."

For now, that's a safe bet, said Andrew Sullivan, vice-president of the polling firm EKOS Research Associates.

Canadians have an "enormously positive" view of their armed forces, although their understanding of their role in the world today is outdated, he said.

"We still subscribe to that anachronistic view of the peacekeepers ... it's an image that people cling to pretty tenaciously," Sullivan said.

One reason for that is that Canadians like to think their military is somehow different from the U.S. armed forces. Which is why the coming mission in Afghanistan could prove "jarring" to Canadians, he said.
Peacekeeping is 'anachronistic'?
 
  • #58
Townsend said:
Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?
Since everyone else missed this one... Aside from the fact that France has caught quite a few Al Qeada terrorists on behalf of the U.S. and 9-11, are you saying you don't care about terrorism in Madrid, or London, or anywhere except on American soil? Yet you feel these other countries are somehow beholding to us then?
 
  • #59
SOS2008 said:
Since everyone else missed this one... Aside from the fact that France has caught quite a few Al Qeada terrorists on behalf of the U.S. and 9-11, are you saying you don't care about terrorism in Madrid, or London, or anywhere except on American soil? Yet you feel these other countries are somehow beholding to us then?

Thats not what I am saying and you know it. :rolleyes:
 
  • #60
Townsend said:
Thats not what I am saying and you know it. :rolleyes:
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