Is Apologizing to the Planet Effective in Addressing Global Issues?

[Tsu]

Artman

Well, I'll tell ya... I've been working in - and a part of - the democratic process since I was 7 years old and stuffing envelopes for JFK. We spent years working to improve civil rights, rights for the under-represented, and equality of rights... God... and SO much more... We take our civil liberties very seriously. And we are seeing them uravel right before our very eyes. But our Bill of Rights guarantees us freedom of speech and the right to criticize our government (so far). Sadly, your attitude leads me to believe that even this is starting to slip away. Why? Because the very fact that you can think that this site can even come CLOSE to being considered treasonous is one of the very reasons I want to leave. The tide has turned. This country no longer stands for the things I believe in and have spent most of my life working for. So, yeah Artman. That really is pretty freakin' offensive. (Keep it up and I'm kickin' you off the bus in Toledo or Gary! )

As far as it not being a 'harmless website' - well, my hope is that it becomes a very powerful website carrying many powerful messages to and from people all over the world. This is a website about the people.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Many of the things this administration has done or is planning to do are literally terrifying to me.

Did you see the CNN segment about the Evangelical movement?
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/
This is truly dangerous stuff; most of all because they believe that their interpretation of the Bible is infallible. As a life long Christian I find that much of this has more in common with Hitler than Christ. In a way it mirrors what is happening politically in the US - the essential philosophy is betrayed. "Constitution" is a dirty word, and one should hate or reject, not love all sinners. Also, in one form or another, Evangelcals constitute a huge percentage of the voting population, and growing.

Note also that by the most basic defintion I am considered evangelical. I meet all of the tests listed by leaders of the movement. This is not about religion. This is about power. As I understood the statements made, it is their duty to make us conform to their definition of socially acceptable behavior and norms.

Edit: Of course, all defintions of "acceptable" are taken on faith alone; and according to their local leader.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Did you see the CNN segment about the Evangelical movement? This is truly dangerous stuff; most of all because they believe that their interpretation of the Bible is infallible. As a life long Christian I find that much of this has more in common with Hitler than Christ. In a way it mirrors what is happening politically in the US - the essential philosophy is betrayed. "Constitution" is a dirty word, and one should hate or reject, not love all sinners. Also, in one form or another, Evangelcals constitute a huge percentage of the voting population.

How does one fight a war? Push when you have the advantage, retreat and preserve yourself and resources when you don't. Don't act or make decisions out of despair or panic. Realize momentum swings right and then left, but over the long haul the best way prevails. Dig in, hold your ground, have faith.

America, for all it's problems, is still the most dynamic, pioneering, and freedom-believing place on the planet.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have been watching this downward slide in a number of ways for most of my life; at least three decades. Over the years, for example, my dad and I have probably had this discussion about the loss of our rights and this neo-Nazi mentality hundreds of times [Edit: and Tsu and I have both worked very hard to stop it]. But from my point of view we have crossed the line. I am officially afraid of my country. Tsu feels the same way.

Watching the news is like watching some low budget Orwellian movie from the sixties; what used to be considered science fiction.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Look, I don't mean to say the situation is hopeless. But looking ahead, for me, I've had enough. We need to think about our own happiness.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay sorry for the delayed thoughts here but let me put it this way: At this point there is only so much that we can do. We are not kids anymore and we have practical concerns about our freedom; not to mention the fact that we believe that Nader is right - The Corporations now occupy Washington. So, in addition to the fact that we don't want to live here any more given the present and forseeable political climate, we also feel very deeply that this is the ultimate form of protest. Maybe if we and about a million other patriots take our 200 billion dollars and leave, faith will magically demand a new attitude about the principles of our Constitution.

 

[Janitor]

The radio tuner in my car rarely departs from the Christian talk station. In October the upcoming election was a frequent topic. The local host made it clear--short of actually coming right out and saying it--that he would be voting for Bush. The situation with A.C.O.R.N. came up one day. That is a group that was urging people unqualified to vote in this election to go ahead and vote illegally anyway. The feeling was that criminal voters would be voting pretty much exclusively for Kerry, and in that way A.C.O.R.N. might swing the vote in favor of Kerry.

I disagree with much (most?) of what is said on the programs they run on that station. But the host said something that brought an "Amen!" from my heathen lips. "I would rather have my candidate lose in an honest election than to have my candidate win by a fraudulent election." I feel exactly that way, but I get the feeling that some of the PF members maybe don't look at it like that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think the system works fine. The people betray themselves.

Edit: That's the irony of democracy and freedom: It can be voted away.

 

[revelator]

The Canadian right-wing newspapers have been slamming Americans who are thinking of ex-patriating. I wish I had subscriptions to these papers so I could post a few of those links. It kinda saddened me to see those articles.

 

[Adrian Baker]

Adrian -
You are rude. (What the heck is 'whinging'?)

Whinging

whinge - Pronunciation (hwnj, wnj)

To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

intr.v. Chiefly British whinged, whing·ing, whing·es

[Dialectal alteration of Middle English whinsen, from Old English hwinsian.]

whinger n.
whinging·ly adv.

Rude! Me!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Canadian right-wing newspapers have been slamming Americans who are thinking of ex-patriating. I wish I had subscriptions to these papers so I could post a few of those links. It kinda saddened me to see those articles.

We are expecting some of this but hopefully things won't get too bad. We also expect that some people here will hate us; which is the point, reallyow dare us refuse to conform.

You know, there is something really liberating about saying enough is enough!

We come with money in hand. I also plan to take full advantage of the NAFTA.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Look, I don't mean to say the situation is hopeless. But looking ahead, for me, I've had enough. We need to think about our own happiness.

Try this one on for size. Today I saw on a news channel a poll of Democratic voters who, after being given several candidates to choose from, were asked who they'd vote for in 2008. Guess who came in tops (after "don't know")? Hillary Clinton!

Okay, at that time you've moved to Canada and been there for a few years. You emerge from your house to be interviewed by the local news station on how you feel about this. You throw your Moosehead bottle at an irritating camera man, and then mosquito-bitten from head to ankles, say, "Eh? . . . no way, that rightwing festering cesspool you call America would never let her in."

The interviewer says, "oh yes, she's in. Apparently the two-term conservative thing was just a reaction to 9/11. America is back on track now."

"Back on track?" you say swatting a big, fat engourged quito on your forehead.

"Yep, you know how America is. It takes three steps forward, and then two back. This last forward step was awhile in coming, but now America has a kick-ass lady, with the tolerance of a saint, to show America hasn't rolled over yet. By the way, we could've used your help in getting her elected . . . "

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay, I think you're the first person to make me laugh about this since the election.

 

[revelator]

Americans, do you feel that it's more likely that Bush got in because of residual fear from 9/11, or because 51% of the population honestly does agree with his policy?

 

[Janitor]

Americans, do you feel that it's more likely that Bush got in because of residual fear from 9/11, or because 51% of the population honestly does agree with his policy?

Actually, one theory is that the American electorate is made of sterner stuff than that of Spain. Al Qaeda's violence in Madrid seems to have had the effect they desired. But what seemed like a videotape threat by bin Laden shortly before the U.S. election that we voters had better not re-elect the president showed a misunderstanding on his part of the "up yours" swagger of many Americans when they are threatened by an outsider.

 

[revelator]

I thought Bin Laden had said it didn'y matter who won the election, and that the possibility of future attacks rested solely in the hands of the American people?

 

[Janitor]

I thought Bin Laden had said it didn'y matter who won the election, and that the possibility of future attacks rested solely in the hands of the American people?

Well, I just re-read the English translation of the tape at a website. It does indeed say what you quoted, but it also says: "As has been said: 'An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.' And know that: 'It is better to return to the truth than persist in error.' And that the wise man doesn't squander his security, wealth and children for the sake of the liar in the White House."

That to me sounds like he is saying that we voters had better not try to persist with the same person in office.

 

[revelator]

Hmm, what if he's trying to his hand at reverse psychology? I'm sure Bush is a better source of new terrorist recruits than Kerry. Either way, I'd hope Americans have more sense than to let the opinions of Bin Laden affect their decision to vote.

 

[Janitor]

...I'm sure Bush is a better source of new terrorist recruits than Kerry...

I have heard that theory as well.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Americans, do you feel that it's more likely that Bush got in because of residual fear from 9/11, or because 51% of the population honestly does agree with his policy?

Most people that I have spoken with who supported Bush not only believe that Saddam was responsible for 911, but that war in Iraq is the war on terror. For this reasons they support his policies. In other words, its not that they support his policies, they just don't know what they are. Also, he sounds good on TV if you only have about ten seconds to pay attention.

 

[Smurf]

10 seconds being the exact amount of time in between 'American Idol' and 'Terminator 3'

 

[Artman]

Hmm, what if he's trying to his hand at reverse psychology? I'm sure Bush is a better source of new terrorist recruits than Kerry. Either way, I'd hope Americans have more sense than to let the opinions of Bin Laden affect their decision to vote.

Bush has upset two governments where Bin Laden felt comfortable, rebuilt the CIA, taken a dictator out of power that killed millions of muslim people, and Kerry was an antiwar protestor, what do you think? I'm guessing he wanted Bush out of power.

I do believe, very strongly, that you Ivan and Tsu have the right to say whatever you want about this government, but that does not change the nature of what you are saying. The beauty of our country is that we have the right to say things that in other countries would have us killed or put in prison. That is because we ARE the government. We don't have a king, we have a president. He works for us. What you are saying does border on treason, because what you are saying is that he is not YOUR president he is OURS, (those who voted for him). As Russ said, you are apologizing for the democratic form of government that allowed someone other than your choice become president.

I want you to know that I did not vote for Kerry, but if he had won, I would have been behind him 100%. He would still be my president.

 

[Tsu]

For God's sake, Artman. I'm not 'apologizing for the democratic form of government that allowed someone other than your choice become president' in ANY way, shape or form. I can live with a bad president. Hell, not many of them have really been all that great in my lifetime! No. I'm apologizing for a sorry-a$$, war-mongering, muslim-hating/killing, stupid, ignorant, lying, pathetic-excuse-for-a-Christian president who will probably continue to invade more countries and kill more muslims in his Crusade for Christ.

He does NOT represent me, my views, or my values. I don't want him. You can have him. He's too bad for me!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Nor does he represent American values. Bush is the living definition of un-American. He is an enemy of the Constitution thus an enemy of this nation.

Surely no one is naive enough to think we get this upset over every election, or that this is about liberalism and conservatism. I have never been so outraged...not even close. We view this as a defining moment in this nation's history; perhaps the end of the US as we know it. Until most Americans learn to value those ideals which made this country, the country is lost. The definition of America is the Constitution, not the people who happen to be voting this year.

 

[revelator]

Bush has upset two governments where Bin Laden felt comfortable, rebuilt the CIA, taken a dictator out of power that killed millions of muslim people, and Kerry was an antiwar protestor, what do you think? I'm guessing he wanted Bush out of power.

I wouldn't doubt that at all, but I have no doubt that Bush has been nothing but a boon for terrorist recruitment.

 

[Smurf]

On top of that... are you saying that killing millions of muslims was a good thing?

Oh right, I forgot that they worshipped a false god. my bad.

 

[revelator]

Artman, would you stand behind and support 100% a man whom you considered to be immoral, just because he's your President?

 

[Artman]

On top of that... are you saying that killing millions of muslims was a good thing?

Oh right, I forgot that they worshipped a false god. my bad.

No, what I was talking about was Sadaam killing over a million Muslims, not Bush.

Artman, would you stand behind and support 100% a man whom you considered to be immoral, just because he's your President?

When Clinton was being accused of having sex with his interns, my position was that he should not be bothered with those law suits while he was president. Take any required depositions, interview any witnesses, etc, but do not involve the president until he is out of office. Our two party system works to discredit the president at every opportunity so that the other party has a better chance to get into power. What happens is what we see with Bush, lop sided sources give us two views of the same man. Nearly 50% believe him one thing, the other 50% believe him to be something entirely different. My position is, support him when he is in office, and challange him only in what applies directly to that office. My personal opinion is that he is doing the best he can.

I wouldn't doubt that at all, but I have no doubt that Bush has been nothing but a boon for terrorist recruitment.

I can't disagree with this, but I believe he has weakened their support systems (funding sources, training camps, etc.) The USA was being accused of killing Iraqis prior to the war by our support of the UN sanctions against them, (even though they hinged on Sadaam's compliance with the requirements of his surrender in the first Gulf War). The USA being blamed for these million deaths I think was probably a larger boon for terrorist recruiment than who is currently president. And, hopefully, the way is being cleared to rebuild Iraq this could ease tensions.