Is hydrogen the key to the universe's survival?

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    Hydrogen Universe
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the role of hydrogen in the universe, particularly its abundance, stability, and the processes involved in the creation and depletion of hydrogen over cosmic time. Participants explore questions related to stellar processes, the fate of heavier elements, and the potential for hydrogen regeneration.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that heavier elements formed in stars are expelled into space during supernova events, contributing to the elemental composition of the universe.
  • There is a suggestion that while some hydrogen can be created through processes like protons being knocked out of atoms, the universe is ultimately finite in its hydrogen supply.
  • A reference to a historical model, the "steady-state universe," is made, which proposed a mechanism for hydrogen generation as the universe expands, although it is noted that this model does not align with current understanding.
  • One participant emphasizes the long timescales involved in the depletion of hydrogen, citing estimates of around 10 trillion years for the lifetimes of red dwarfs.
  • There are claims regarding the creation of hydrogen from radioactive materials like radium, but uncertainty exists about whether this process occurs in space or is limited to Earth.
  • Some participants clarify that most helium on Earth is produced from radioactive decay rather than hydrogen, and that significant hydrogen production from nuclear reactions is rare and occurs in negligible amounts.
  • Discussion includes the idea that hydrogen may be produced from neutron emissions, which decay into protons, but this is also noted to be an uncommon source.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the universe has a finite supply of hydrogen and that it is consumed by stars over time. However, there are competing views regarding the mechanisms of hydrogen creation and the implications of these processes for the universe's future.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about hydrogen production rely on specific conditions or definitions that may not be universally accepted. The discussion includes references to historical models and theoretical frameworks that are not currently supported by observational evidence.

memphisp
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Ok, hydrogen is the simplest and most abundant atom in the universe. And I read that atoms are contantly trying to turn into a more stable being, where iron atoms are the most stable.

Stars fuse hydrogen for energy, and when the hydrogen runs out, the stars life is over.

So I have two questions.

1. Do the heavier elements formed in stars get blasted into space when stars go supernova?

2. It seems that the universe would eventually run out of hydrogen, so is there something or some process in the universe by which more hydrogen is created?

This is my first post and I look forward to great discussions with everyone.
 
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memphisp said:
1. Do the heavier elements formed in stars get blasted into space when stars go supernova?
Yes, that's how most of the iron and all of the heavier metals on Earth got there.

2. It seems that the universe would eventually run out of hydrogen, so is there something or some process in the universe by which more hydrogen is created?
You can create some hydrogen by protons being knocked out of atoms but basically you are correct, ultimately the universe runs out of fuel (assuming it hasn't collapsed by then)
 
memphisp said:
1. Do the heavier elements formed in stars get blasted into space when stars go supernova?

Here is a paper where they do the calculation to see what does get blasted out

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/0004-637X/521/2/735/39223.text.html

2. It seems that the universe would eventually run out of hydrogen, so is there something or some process in the universe by which more hydrogen is created?

As far as we know, no. What this means is that the stars have a finite lifetime, and the universe couldn't have existed forever. In the 1960's, there was a model of the universe known as the "steady-state universe" in which you had hydrogen get generated as the universe expands. It's a very elegant beautiful model, and it turns out that you don't have to generate much hydrogen to keep the universe in steady state (one atom in each galaxy each year).

But it turns out that the universe doesn't work that way.
 
mgb_phys said:
You can create some hydrogen by protons being knocked out of atoms but basically you are correct, ultimately the universe runs out of fuel (assuming it hasn't collapsed by then)
Let me just stress that it takes a long long long time for that to happen.
 
As I know is not exist any observation of massive creation of hydrogen in Universe.

So, that is an other strong argument of fact that the Universe does start a finite time ago. And, obvious, this time is shorten then the "hydrogen exhaust period" of Universe.
 
Chalnoth said:
Let me just stress that it takes a long long long time for that to happen.

I think the number I've seen is about 10 trillion years for the red dwarfs to die out.
 
Thanks for the replies.

The only thing I've ever herd that could create hydrogen is Radium and I guess maybe other radioactive materials. But I think that this is only on Earth I'm not sure if it works in space. Supposedly, when you put a piece of radium in a container it will transform many of the atoms in the space into hydrogen. But this is an interaction with the elements that are in our air here on earth. so as i said i don't know if it works in space.

Also I would imagine that the stars would use much more hydrogen than what was created even if it was so.
 
memphisp said:
The only thing I've ever herd that could create hydrogen is Radium and I guess maybe other radioactive materials.
I think you slightly misunderstood.
Most Helium on Earth is created from radioactive decay, heavy elements emit alpha particles (2n+2p) which when neutralised by a couple of electrons makes Helium.

There aren't many nuclear reactions that produce a single proton (which would pick up an electron to make hydrogen) and certainly not in anything but negligble amounts
 
mgb_phys said:
I think you slightly misunderstood.
Most Helium on Earth is created from radioactive decay, heavy elements emit alpha particles (2n+2p) which when neutralised by a couple of electrons makes Helium.

There aren't many nuclear reactions that produce a single proton (which would pick up an electron to make hydrogen) and certainly not in anything but negligble amounts
I think most of the hydrogen that would come from nuclear reactions would come from the emission of neutrons, which decay to protons after a few minutes.
 
  • #10
Chalnoth said:
I think most of the hydrogen that would come from nuclear reactions would come from the emission of neutrons, which decay to protons after a few minutes.

Not exactly a common source of Hydrogen though
 

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