Is it possible to break this baseball bat with the heel of the foot?

[Username34]

The thai does it with the shinbone which is much harder material than that piece of wood. So I'm not chocked at all.

Can you however break that thing which the much softer heel, covered in so much skin padding? Say with back kick (donkey/horse kick).

No matter how much you crank up the speed, isn't there a limit to the softness of the heel?

 

[Baluncore]

Welcome to PF.

No matter how much you crank up the speed, isn't there a limit to the softness of the heel?

The bone in the heel is big and hard, yet it can still be broken by unusual external forces, applied through the external soft flesh, without damage to the flesh.
The flesh on the heel includes unusual structures, some are described here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel

The toes and the front part of the foot, form a soft suspension system, that reduces shock loads on the skeleton when walking. The heel is harder, and is reserved for standing, and some more unusual foot impacts.

The flesh on the heel may be soft, but it forms a cup about the bone, that transfers a wide area of ground contact pressure onto the skeleton, through the heel bone. For that reason, the heel may be able to apply greater forces, without damage to the body, than other parts of the foot.

You might analyse the flesh on the heel bone as having evolved to protect the bone from the most common external impacts. You might also analyse the flesh as an impedance matching medium, between the skeleton and the ground. Both those approaches show that the presence of the soft flesh, will increase the peak force that can be applied between the heel and an external object.

 

[Username34]

Welcome to PF.

The bone in the heel is big and hard, yet it can still be broken by unusual external forces, applied through the external soft flesh, without damage to the flesh.
The flesh on the heel includes unusual structures, some are described here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel

The toes and the front part of the foot, form a soft suspension system, that reduces shock loads on the skeleton when walking. The heel is harder, and is reserved for standing, and some more unusual foot impacts.

The flesh on the heel may be soft, but it forms a cup about the bone, that transfers a wide area of ground contact pressure onto the skeleton, through the heel bone. For that reason, the heel may be able to apply greater forces, without damage to the body, than other parts of the foot.

You might analyse the flesh on the heel bone as having evolved to protect the bone from the most common external impacts. You might also analyse the flesh as an impedance matching medium, between the skeleton and the ground. Both those approaches show that the presence of the soft flesh, will increase the peak force that can be applied between the heel and an external object.

Yes but the comparison was to the shin bone. Do you think the heel is strong enough to break the bat with all the padding surrounding it? It obviously cushions the intended blow.

 

[Baluncore]

The heel is more than strong enough. It was designed for the job. The same force, applied to the shin-bone, is being applied in a way the shin-bone was designed to limit. The bending flexibility of the shin-bone, is the only reason it survives, while the skin is damaged.

The bending of the shin-bone, is a greater limitation, than the softness of the flesh on the heel.

 

[Username34]

The heel is more than strong enough. It was designed for the job. The same force, applied to the shin-bone, is being applied in a way the shin-bone was designed to limit. The bending flexibility of the shin-bone, is the only reason it survives, while the skin is damaged.

The bending of the shin-bone, is a greater limitation, than the softness of the flesh on the heel.

But you require more speed for the heel than the shine bone for an equal amount of damage, since it's much softer.

 

[Username34]

The bending of the shin-bone, is a greater limitation, than the softness of the flesh on the heel.

How would you compare the skin heel with plastic shoe heel. Is that one tough to calculate the difference in mass? Given that the shoe might allow you to go harder before reaching a resistance threshold?

 

[Username34]

Here's a heel kick with the shoes on. By me.

 

[berkeman]

Do you think the heel is strong enough to break the bat with all the padding surrounding it?

I can break anything in a YouTube video. Just sayin'

 

[Baluncore]

But you require more speed for the heel than the shine bone for an equal amount of damage, since it's much softer.

I think you are overestimating the softness of the flesh on the heel.

Boxing gloves prevent local damage, while allowing the momentum of the arm and shoulder, to be transferred efficiently to the opponent's body.

Once contact with the heel is made, the large contact area of the flesh heel-pad locks in place, and so will appear to be more solid, backed by the heel-bone and the momentum of the leg.

 

[Username34]

I think you are overestimating the softness of the flesh on the heel.

Boxing gloves prevent local damage, while allowing the momentum of the arm and shoulder, to be transferred efficiently to the opponent's body.

Once contact with the heel is made, the large contact area of the flesh heel-pad locks in place, and so will appear to be more solid, backed by the heel-bone and the momentum of the leg.

The thais condition their shine bone to be able to go 100%.

As to gloves vs bare knuckle, bare knuckles generate 27% more force than gloves as measured here

Bare fist - 815 pounds (370 kg of force)

Boxing glove 641 pounds (291 kg)

 

[Baluncore]

The thais condition their shine bone to be able to go 100%.

By definition, any bone breaks above 100%.

As to gloves vs bare knuckle, bare knuckles generate 27% more force than gloves as measured here

Physical injuries to the boxer's hands, and to the target, are reduced by gloves. The flesh on the heel better protects the skeleton from damage.

There is a difference between boxing as a sport, and fighting to maximise injury to your opponent. You and your opponent are less likely to die, if you are both wearing boxing gloves. If you want to kill your opponent, shoot them.

 

[Username34]

By definition, any bone breaks above 100%.Physical injuries to the boxer's hands, and to the target, are reduced by gloves. The flesh on the heel better protects the skeleton from damage.

There is a difference between boxing as a sport, and fighting to maximise injury to your opponent. You and your opponent are less likely to die, if you are both wearing boxing gloves. If you want to kill your opponent, shoot them.

Let's stick to the science. Padding reduces force. Skin padding is probably sturdier than boxing gloves. A lot of boxers break their hands despite wrapping + gloves.

 

[Rive]

Can you however break that thing which the much softer heel, covered in so much skin padding? Say with back kick (donkey/horse kick).

Absolutely. The only reason that 'back/mule/donkey kick' is rarely seen in martial arts is that it is slow and not practical. But regarding transferred power and safety, it's absolutely a winner.
Heels are made to 'kick' earth with enough force to keep 80kg 'floating' in the air...
... well, that's quite bit of simplification but not entirely wrong.

Look up door breaking/breaching techniques.

 

[Baluncore]

Let's stick to the science. Padding reduces force.

That is not science.
It is the local peak pressure that is reduced by padding, by distributing the force over a wider area.

 

[Username34]

It is the local peak pressure that is reduced by padding, by distributing the force over a wider area.

Which equals less damage.

 

[Username34]

Absolutely. The only reason that 'back/mule/donkey kick' is rarely seen in martial arts is that it is slow and not practical.

They are quite popular in martial arts, but they don't end fights as much one might think.. They require timing and distance due to the padded heeL.

A shin bone hurts no matter speed.

 

[Baluncore]

Which equals less damage.

Less damage to the heel, but not to the target.

 

[Rive]

They are quite popular in martial arts, but they don't end fights as much one might think..

I don't see them often. Since heels are not in front, it requires quite some work (and time) to bring them forward => not practical. A very cooperative opponent is needed...

A shin bone hurts no matter speed.

Sure. But I think you meant, that it hurts for the opponent....
You should check up how they look like after a 'good' match.
I won't post those pics here.

 

[Username34]

I don't see them often. Since heels are not in front, it requires quite some work (and time) to bring them forward => not practical. A very cooperative opponent is needed...

They are there but it's blink and you miss it in a fight.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Having a case of plantar fasciitis that is just beginning to resolve, I find this thread very triggering.

 

[Baluncore]

I find this thread very triggering.

You have my sympathy. It is a memorable pain triggering topic.
I broke my heel-bone, but it went undiagnosed for a month while I walked on the toes. The other leg got the immediate surgical reconstruction, which justified the crutches.
The lesson learned. Don't try to kick half a tonne of steel out of the way when it is chasing you.

 

[pinball1970]

You have my sympathy. It is a memorable pain triggering topic.
I broke my heel-bone, but it went undiagnosed for a month while I walked on the toes. The other leg got the immediate surgical reconstruction, which justified the crutches.
The lesson learned. Don't try to kick half a tonne of steel out of the way when it is chasing you

Painful!

 

[pinball1970]

A shin bone hurts no matter speed.

All that training cannot do much to protect it from a direct hit, especially when the opponents leg is planted firmly on the ground. (Also one of the reasons why "studs up" tackle or "over the ball" tackles are heavily punished in soccer. )

Back to MMA, That low kick to the leg is just so dangerous in martial arts, if the fighter generates enough power one of those legs could break.
Watch with the below (leg break MMA) with the sound down, see how innocuous the blow looks at 3 seconds? The swing is quite quick but not super human. The opponents leg moves to the side a little on contact.
EDIT: You see his leg break and the mods may object so I decided against it. I am interested in why the bones break so easily without seeming to inflict any sort of damage to the opponent.
The heel stamp would be similar to jabbing an object/opponent with a pole as opposed to swinging at it like a round house.

 

[Username34]

Less damage to the heel, but not to the target.

11.21 overview
spinning wheel ( heel) 62,00
spinning back (heel) - 75.00
roundhouse kick (shin) - 163,423

Hardness wins