Is it possible to manipulate partial derivatives in this manner?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the manipulation of partial derivatives in the context of variable transformations, particularly in relation to expressions involving multiple variables. Participants explore the legality of certain algebraic maneuvers with partial derivatives, referencing specific examples related to the transformation of the four-potential under Lorentz boosts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the legality of manipulating partial derivatives in the form of ##\dfrac{\partial (a + bc)}{\partial (f + gh)}##, suggesting potential methods for splitting and rearranging terms.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of using the chain rule for changing variables, indicating that some variables are constants while others are not.
  • Clarifications are made regarding which variables are constants and which are variables, with some participants asserting that certain variables are independent of others.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the validity of their approach to manipulating partial derivatives, despite achieving a desired outcome.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between the variables involved, particularly regarding independence and dependence on others.
  • Participants reference specific equations related to the transformation of electric and magnetic fields under Lorentz transformations, indicating a connection to broader physics concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the legality of the proposed manipulations of partial derivatives. There are competing views on the correct approach, particularly regarding the application of the chain rule and the independence of variables.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the need for clarity on which variables are treated as constants and which are variables, as well as the implications of variable independence on the manipulation of derivatives. There is also mention of unresolved mathematical steps in the transformation process.

SiennaTheGr8
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If I have an expression like ##\dfrac{\partial x}{\partial y}##, and I know that ##x = a + bc## and ##y = f + gh##, then I have:

##\dfrac{\partial (a + bc)}{\partial (f + gh)}##.

I'm wondering what kind of maneuvers are "legal" here. Say that ##b## and ##g## are constants, and the other symbols are variables. Could I, for example, do something like this?

##\dfrac{\partial a + b \, \partial c}{\partial f + g \, \partial h}##

And then even, say, split up the "fraction" and do something like this to each part?:

##\dfrac{\partial a}{\partial f + g \, \partial h} = \dfrac{\partial a \, \partial f - g \, \partial a \, \partial h}{(\partial f)^2 - (g \, \partial h)^2} = \dfrac{\partial a \, \partial f}{\partial f \left( \partial f - \frac{(g \, \partial h)^2}{\partial f} \right) } - \dfrac{g \, \partial a \, \partial h}{\partial h \left( \frac{(\partial f)^2}{\partial h} - g^2 \, \partial h \right) } = \dfrac{\partial a}{\partial f} [+] \dfrac{\partial a}{g \, \partial h}##,

where in the last step I set the only remaining 2nd-order partials to zero.

I'm asking because I had occasion to try using such "methods," and much to my surprise I ended up with the answer I was looking for. I just don't know whether that was coincidence or if this is all actually kosher.

[edit: changed - to +, indicated by square brackets]
 
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Your notation is a bit confusing are a, b, f, g, constant and c and h variable? In changing variables you should use the well know "chain rule".
 
No, ##b## and ##g## are the only constants.
 
If a,c,f, and h are independent variables and y does not depend and a and c and x does not depend on f and h then x is not a function of y.
BTW the last expression should have a plus sign.

Is this question a part of a larger problem?
 
gleem said:
BTW the last expression should have a plus sign.

Yes, thank you—fixed.

gleem said:
Is this question a part of a larger problem?

I'm trying to use the transformation of the four-potential ##(\phi, A_x, A_y, A_z)## under a Lorentz boost (along the ##x##-axis) to derive the transformation formulas for the electric and magnetic field components. As an example, I end up with:

##E_y^\prime = - \left( \dfrac{\partial \phi^\prime}{\partial y^\prime} + \dfrac{\partial A_y^\prime}{\partial (ct)^\prime} \right) = - \left( \dfrac{\partial \left( \gamma \phi - \gamma \beta A_x \right)}{\partial y} + \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial \left( \gamma ct - \gamma \beta x \right)} \right)##,

which I know is supposed to equal:

##- \gamma \left( \dfrac{\partial \phi}{\partial y} + \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial (ct)} \right) - \gamma \beta \left( \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial x} - \dfrac{\partial A_x}{\partial y} \right)##

(##\beta## and ##\gamma=(1 - \beta^2)^{-1/2}## are constants).

I didn't know what to do with those ##\partial (\textrm{foo + bar})## objects, but I forged ahead with the kind of "algebra" shown above in my OP (as if they were ordinary differentials), and I seem to have succeeded. I just don't have experience treating "partial differentials" this way, so I don't know if what I did was valid.
 
gleem said:
If a,c,f, and h are independent variables and y does not depend and a and c and x does not depend on f and h then x is not a function of y.

So, in fact there are only two new independent variables x and t not four. Have you tried the chain rule yet?
 
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Yes, thank you, I think I understand now:

##\dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial ct^\prime (x, ct)} = \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial ct} \dfrac{\partial}{\partial ct^\prime} (\gamma ct^\prime + \gamma \beta x^\prime) + \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial x} \dfrac{\partial}{\partial ct^\prime} (\gamma x^\prime + \gamma \beta ct^\prime) = \gamma \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial ct} + \gamma \beta \dfrac{\partial A_y}{\partial x}##

Been a while since I've worked with partials...
 

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