Is It Valid to Cancel Sets in Set Theory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of cancelling sets in set theory, exploring the implications of set operations such as union, difference, and cardinality. Participants examine whether certain algebraic manipulations are permissible within the framework of set theory.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant claims that cancelling sets from both sides of an equation is valid, leading to a contradiction when assuming A and B are distinct sets.
  • Others argue that there is no operation defined for cancelling sets, emphasizing that such manipulations are not valid.
  • Several participants provide examples to illustrate that operations like A-B = A-C do not imply B=C, reinforcing the limitations of set operations.
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of A + B in the context of set operations, with some suggesting it refers to the union of sets.
  • Participants note that while cardinalities of sets can be manipulated arithmetically, the same does not apply to the sets themselves.
  • One participant highlights that sets do not form an algebraic group under the operation of union, questioning the validity of applying algebraic operations to sets.
  • Another participant points out that cardinalities may not behave as expected in certain operations, providing counterexamples.
  • There is a cautionary note about the risks of misapplying operations in set theory and the importance of adhering to defined operations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the validity of cancelling sets, with some asserting it is not permissible while others explore the implications of such actions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader applicability of algebraic operations to sets versus their cardinalities.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the operations that can be performed on sets and their cardinalities, indicating a need for clarity on definitions and valid manipulations within set theory.

parshyaa
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We can prove that
When A and B are two sets(A≠B)
(A-B) = (A∩B') = (A-(A∩B))
{We can also confirm them using venn diagram}
From first and third relation
A-B = A - (A∩B)
By cancelling A from both side
I get B = (A∩B)
Which is only possible when A and B are same set.
What is wrong in my proof , is it not valid to cancell sets A from both side(if yes then why?)
 
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parshyaa said:
By cancelling A from both side
There is no such operation.
 
mfb said:
There is no such operation.
So we can not cancell sets
mfb said:
There is no such operation.
Can you give a reason for not to cancell sets from both side( or another similar example)
Another question:
what does addition of two sets means
I know what does (A∪B) ,(A-B) meant
But can you tell me what does A + B means
A,B,C are sets
 
A-B = A-C does not imply B=C.
Similarly, A∪B = A∪C does not imply B=C either.
parshyaa said:
But can you tell me what does A + B means
From the context, probably the union, (A∪B). If in doubt, ask the person who wrote that.
 
mfb said:
A-B = A-C does not imply B=C.
Similarly, A∪B = A∪C does not imply B=C either.From the context, probably the union, (A∪B). If in doubt, ask the person who wrote that.
Ok, A∪B And A+B are same
And n(A∪B)= n(A)+ n(B) -n(A∩B)
Is just for cardinality of (A∪B)

in my first question
You are trying to say that, we can not apply operations on sets we can only apply operations to their cardinality(your example completely proved the reason why, thanks)

A-B = A-(A∩B)
A-A = B-(A∩B)
Φ+(A∩B) = B
Does it implyes any thing?
 
mfb said:
A-B = A-C does not imply B=C.
I got a example
A={1,2,3,4}
B={2,3,7,8,9}
C={2,3,7,8,11,13}
A-B = A-C = {1,4}
Clearly we can see B≠C
 
parshyaa said:
A-A = B-(A∩B)
That is not correct.
parshyaa said:
Φ+(A∩B) = B
What is Φ? The empty set? That equation is not correct either.

You can see all this by drawing diagrams.
parshyaa said:
I got a example
A={1,2,3,4}
B={2,3,7,8,9}
C={2,3,7,8,11,13}
A-B = A-C = {1,4}
Clearly we can see B≠C
Right. A shorter example:
A={1}, B={2}, C={3}
 
mfb said:
That is not correct.What is Φ? The empty set? That equation is not correct either.
I.e what i am saying ,what i have learn from our conversation and from theory is that we can not apply every algebraic operations on set but we can apply them on cardinality of them.
 
Cardinalities of finite sets are just integers, and you can add and subtract integers as usual.
 
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  • #10
parshyaa said:
I.e what i am saying ,what i have learn from our conversation and from theory is that we can not apply every algebraic operations on set but we can apply them on cardinality of them.
Sets do not form an algebraic group when defining "addition" as taking the union. You are correct that we cannot perform algebra on them.

However, it is not clear that cardinalities work either.

A = {1}
B = {2}
A-B = {1}
|A| - |B| is not equal to |A-B|
 
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  • #11
jbriggs444 said:
Sets do not form an algebraic group when defining "addition" as taking the union. You are correct that we cannot perform algebra on them.

However, it is not clear that cardinalities work either.

A = {1}
B = {2}
A-B = {1}
|A| - |B| is not equal to |A-B|
Yes,algebraic operations do not work with the cardinality of sets , i just write it because i can write n(A∪B) = n(A) + n(B) - n(A∩B)
But i can't write A = B+(C - D)
 
  • #12
In general, you are trying too many things with sets that are not valid. You should take a step back, pay strict attention to the operations that are defined for sets, and only use the basic operations and things proven from the basic operations. Otherwise, it is tempting to adopt bad habits.
 
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