Is Our Debt Exceeding Our Wealth?

[WhoWee]

I like Whowee's question: How to fix the problem without crippling the world? Hmmm.. I am not saying it's an easy question. It would be my guess though if our money problems aren't fixed then there may be one more 'boom' ahead of us followed by possibly the bust to end all busts. We have had to throw a lot of money on the lastest problem which should lead to devasting inflation eventually. Anyways maybe I should make a thread asking to create a hypothetical monetary utopia. That would probably be better than beating around the bush as I have. I was curious to see what most people think about our current system. I think it's probably beyond repair in my opinion. So I believe it will be necessary to start networks of trade in communities and online as well and in doing so create a new currency. Maybe precious metals of some sort. If an entire self sufficient town started to use another form of currency maybe silver and then another and another the dollar would fade out. And then one day maybe we could create a new dollar backed by something real as it used to be. Now I realize that it is kind of out there and there could be a lot of problems with that but just throwing that out there, got any ideas?

I appreciate the truthfulness of your answer. Trying to nudge our "system" in one direction or another often creates uninteded consequences. As you noted, ou banking system has developed over a very long period of time and has evolved into it's present form - good or bad - it is tested and familiar.

 

[brainstorm]

Most people aren't imaginative enough to think that there is another way. The fight for the humanity is one between intellectuals. I believe that the current banking system has been created over a long time and by individuals that put their own greed above their consideration for others. This system is a result of very powerful forces, intelligent people with the drive to succeed over the rest of humanity.

This is not really the case. The "system" you speak of is just the millennia-old practice of allowing people to borrow money or otherwise take on debt when they want something they don't otherwise have access to. What may be new, or at least more advanced, are institutions and ideological spins that make it seem more normal and less consequential to sign your life away for some immediate gratification. When you say that "most people aren't imaginative enough to think that there is another way," that doesn't cut it for me. That is equating ignorance with innocence, when many people are actively searching for someone who will tell them exactly what they want to hear, which is that there is plenty of easy money available if you just "go with the flow" and take it. It's like saying that people who get seduced into drug-addiction didn't have the opportunity to realize that there was something fishy when the dealer told them it would make them feel great and cause their lives to be wonderful.

Surely everyone has heard that drugs end up costing you more than what you pay for them, and debt is the same. Everyone has had someone tell them to be cautious about taking on debt and to live within their means but they thought that that person was just a wet-blanket afraid to go with the flow and take risks. No one seems to think that if a majority of people are doing something, that it could possibly have negative consequences for all of them. Well, that's the whole point of debt - get people hooked on money so that they will always do whatever money tells them to. Once they are "saddled," the trick is to drive them in a way that maximizes profit without provoking them to seek freedom. As nasty as it sounds, the profit that it creates and the corresponding lifestyle is exactly what people are after when they take on the debt in the first place.

Not a conspiracy, but flaws of humanity. It is up to other equally intelligent people who value the success and happiness of future generations to combat these crimes against the population as a whole an not to give into such seduction.

No it is not a flaw of humanity, at least not in any inevitable sense. And there are no "crimes" against any "population as a whole." Hiding among the masses is exactly what got people into these problems to begin with.

How to fix the problem without crippling the world?

It depends what you mean by "crippling." When consumerism has driven people to the point of equating loss of comfort and status with "crippling," it's not possible. If "crippling" means that there won't be enough food, shelter, clothing, and other basic necessities to go around, this will only happen as long as people choose to subject each other to deprivation as a means of motivating them to generate sufficient profit for other people to pay off their debts.

Hmmm.. I am not saying it's an easy question. It would be my guess though if our money problems aren't fixed then there may be one more 'boom' ahead of us followed by possibly the bust to end all busts.

That's what every bust is; but as soon as the survivors recover, they start to search for another boom to multiply their money and make a quick profit instead of investing in long-term stability (and I'm not just talking about investing money).

We have had to throw a lot of money on the lastest problem which should lead to devasting inflation eventually. Anyways maybe I should make a thread asking to create a hypothetical monetary utopia. That would probably be better than beating around the bush as I have. I was curious to see what most people think about our current system. I think it's probably beyond repair in my opinion. So I believe it will be necessary to start networks of trade in communities and online as well and in doing so create a new currency. Maybe precious metals of some sort. If an entire self sufficient town started to use another form of currency maybe silver and then another and another the dollar would fade out. And then one day maybe we could create a new dollar backed by something real as it used to be. Now I realize that it is kind of out there and there could be a lot of problems with that but just throwing that out there, got any ideas?

You can offer to pay people in metals but you will probably want to get at least the market value of your metal and not less, which would be the same as selling them for dollars and then spending the dollars. The point is that this is not a system-problem. It is a production-consumption-distribution problem. It has to do with what people spend their energy and resources on and what the real value of the products is. Yes, people are making profits by generating services and consumption-marketing schemes that get people spending their money. But what is the net result of this economic activity in terms of the ability to cut costs and still be happy? People are hyped up on so many little consumption perks and status-issues that losing access to them feels like they're being crippled. It's going to be an interesting next couple of years because there will be a political battle with both sides trying to sell people on the idea that they can cut their budgets without reducing their materialism and money-expectations, so maybe you should put that on your list of conspiracy theories. It is the great conspiracy to tell people what they want to hear even when it ends up costing them in the long run.

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

Ok just to be totally clear: The problem is fractional reserve banking. And a government that will bail out these banks. Banks in this system will loan out money with no fear as they will get their money back from the government(us) if they default. Fractional reserve banking creates a never ending cycle of inflation and debt. That is the problem. Fractional reserve banking is no different from counterfeiting. It is the creation of money out of nothing. The first one to use this newly created money has the purchasing power of the now and when the money circulates after it's use the value of all money drops. It is a tax. It is like taking from all the penny jars in the country over and over again. No one seems to notice because everyone wants this easy credit and they don't know any better. And how would they? How many times have you heard someone talk about this stuff on TV? Did you learn about how it works in school? No, and that is because the people with the power don't want to lose their power. It is a flaw of humanity. It is greed. It is envy. We have laws to protect the population from these flaws. Murders, Rapists, and theives go to jail for their crimes, yet bankers are stealing from everyone and they receive no jailtime. That's why the laws need to be changed. It is the law that protects us from ourselves. No one wanted to see bankers receive HUGE bonuses after the taxpayer bailout, yet it happened because what they did was legal. The only thing that will save us in a recession is MORE money it will go on until the system inevitably crashes. It has been going on since the great depression. Just look at the history and you will see what I am talking about. It is really not that complicated it is actually quite obvious. Thing is it is not common knowledge in the mainstream in the mainstream this kind of thinking is met with troubled faces and glazed over expressions and deaf ears. Most people don't like to hear bad news. Most people are too naive to think that this is the truth. Most people don't have the time or inclination to spend hours and hours reading about banking or history. The subject of banking and economics is made complicated to further confuse those that would like to learn. When you get home from work after a long day, come home to your wife and kids,are you going to start reading about how a fractional reserve banking system will one day crumble leaving you helpless to survive? Or will you just pretend that everything is going to be okay and pop on sportscenter? It is not rocket science it is human nature.

People are hyped up on so many little consumption perks and status-issues that losing access to them feels like they're being crippled. It's going to be an interesting next couple of years because there will be a political battle with both sides trying to sell people on the idea that they can cut their budgets without reducing their materialism and money-expectations, so maybe you should put that on your list of conspiracy theories. It is the great conspiracy to tell people what they want to hear even when it ends up costing them in the long run.

I agree and that is one of the major problems. My list of conspiracy theories? Could you explain that please?

That's what every bust is; but as soon as the survivors recover, they start to search for another boom to multiply their money and make a quick profit instead of investing in long-term stability (and I'm not just talking about investing money).

How do you suppose we would recover if the value of a dollar dropped to 5 cents. Who is going to sell you food or water for something that has no value? What money are you multiplying? What quick profit? Quick profits are only allowed by law, that is what I am talking about changing. Anyways the ability to make quick profits would cease to exist because there is no more money. I would be worrying about where I am going to get food just like everyone else.

"The current system" certainly isn't perfect, but it is partly responsible for the spectacular and completely unprecedented improvments in the human condition over the past 100 years or so. Without knowing what you think the problems are, I'd still be inclined to say that we shouldn't consider scrapping the system we have now, only tweaking it to fix its minor problems.

I have thought of that, it is absolutely true, but, what good are these acheivements if the system responsible will untimately destroy everything that was created by it. The point is the growth isn't real.

As you noted, our banking system has developed over a very long period of time and has evolved into it's present form - good or bad - it is tested and familiar.

Exactly that is the problem, try to convince someone of this and its a 'conspiracy theory'
as soon as contradicting information is seen as a 'conspiracy theory' it loses all credibility, even if it is not a theory but factual information.

You can offer to pay people in metals but you will probably want to get at least the market value of your metal and not less, which would be the same as selling them for dollars and then spending the dollars. The point is that this is not a system-problem. It is a production-consumption-distribution problem. It has to do with what people spend their energy and resources on and what the real value of the products is. even when it ends up costing them in the long run.

I didn't put a ton of thought into that scenario but atleast there would be something of real value in that community. And if the dollar falls to a couple cents their silver would be worth 100,000 dollars(or whatever it works out to be) an ounce. The point of that really is that they would be self sufficient, so whatever happens to the unstable currency it would have no effect on there way of life or chances of survival. Thats what I think is really necessary. Self sustaining communities not dependant on a huge and aging infrascruture or a broken banking system. A new system has to grow from the inside out. The current system is too big to change, and the mainstream view is just too stubborn. Impossible to change in my eyes. If changed from the inside out, and the growth of real wealth possible, the old system would become useless and fade out over time. I just want everyone to be insulated from financial meltdown and from dependence on energy companies. Amish people wouldn't even know what happened! Not that we have to all become amish! I think you know what I mean.

If you think that I am painting an unrealistically bleak future if nothing is changed than please tell me where I am going wrong.
I have always liked this:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

 

[WhoWee]

Ok just to be totally clear: The problem is fractional reserve banking. And a government that will bail out these banks. Banks in this system will loan out money with no fear as they will get their money back from the government(us) if they default. Fractional reserve banking creates a never ending cycle of inflation and debt. That is the problem. Fractional reserve banking is no different from counterfeiting. It is the creation of money out of nothing. The first one to use this newly created money has the purchasing power of the now and when the money circulates after it's use the value of all money drops. It is a tax. It is like taking from all the penny jars in the country over and over again. No one seems to notice because everyone wants this easy credit and they don't know any better. And how would they? How many times have you heard someone talk about this stuff on TV? Did you learn about how it works in school? No, and that is because the people with the power don't want to lose their power. It is a flaw of humanity. It is greed. It is envy. We have laws to protect the population from these flaws. Murders, Rapists, and theives go to jail for their crimes, yet bankers are stealing from everyone and they receive no jailtime. That's why the laws need to be changed. It is the law that protects us from ourselves. No one wanted to see bankers receive HUGE bonuses after the taxpayer bailout, yet it happened because what they did was legal. The only thing that will save us in a recession is MORE money it will go on until the system inevitably crashes. It has been going on since the great depression. Just look at the history and you will see what I am talking about. It is really not that complicated it is actually quite obvious. Thing is it is not common knowledge in the mainstream in the mainstream this kind of thinking is met with troubled faces and glazed over expressions and deaf ears. Most people don't like to hear bad news. Most people are too naive to think that this is the truth. Most people don't have the time or inclination to spend hours and hours reading about banking or history. The subject of banking and economics is made complicated to further confuse those that would like to learn. When you get home from work after a long day, come home to your wife and kids,are you going to start reading about how a fractional reserve banking system will one day crumble leaving you helpless to survive? Or will you just pretend that everything is going to be okay and pop on sportscenter? It is not rocket science it is human nature.
I agree and that is one of the major problems. My list of conspiracy theories? Could you explain that please?



How do you suppose we would recover if the value of a dollar dropped to 5 cents. Who is going to sell you food or water for something that has no value? What money are you multiplying? What quick profit? Quick profits are only allowed by law, that is what I am talking about changing. Anyways the ability to make quick profits would cease to exist because there is no more money. I would be worrying about where I am going to get food just like everyone else.



I have thought of that, it is absolutely true, but, what good are these acheivements if the system responsible will untimately destroy everything that was created by it. The point is the growth isn't real.



Exactly that is the problem, try to convince someone of this and its a 'conspiracy theory'
as soon as contradicting information is seen as a 'conspiracy theory' it loses all credibility, even if it is not a theory but factual information.



I didn't put a ton of thought into that scenario but atleast there would be something of real value in that community. And if the dollar falls to a couple cents their silver would be worth 100,000 dollars(or whatever it works out to be) an ounce. The point of that really is that they would be self sufficient, so whatever happens to the unstable currency it would have no effect on there way of life or chances of survival. Thats what I think is really necessary. Self sustaining communities not dependant on a huge and aging infrascruture or a broken banking system. A new system has to grow from the inside out. The current system is too big to change, and the mainstream view is just too stubborn. Impossible to change in my eyes. If changed from the inside out, and the growth of real wealth possible, the old system would become useless and fade out over time. I just want everyone to be insulated from financial meltdown and from dependence on energy companies. Amish people wouldn't even know what happened! Not that we have to all become amish! I think you know what I mean.

If you think that I am painting an unrealistically bleak future if nothing is changed than please tell me where I am going wrong.
I have always liked this:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

My bold. Aside from the quote - do you have any support for the rant?

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

My bold. Aside from the quote - do you have any support for the rant?

Which parts specifically? If you could break them down into specific quotes a little better I can answer that question.

 

[WhoWee]

Which parts specifically? If you could break them down into specific quotes a little better I can answer that question.

The bolded sections would be a good start.

"Murders, Rapists, and theives go to jail for their crimes, yet bankers are stealing from everyone and they receive no jailtime. That's why the laws need to be changed. It is the law that protects us from ourselves. No one wanted to see bankers receive HUGE bonuses after the taxpayer bailout, yet it happened because what they did was legal. The only thing that will save us in a recession is MORE money it will go on until the system inevitably crashes. It has been going on since the great depression. Just look at the history and you will see what I am talking about. It is really not that complicated it is actually quite obvious. Thing is it is not common knowledge in the mainstream in the mainstream this kind of thinking is met with troubled faces and glazed over expressions and deaf ears. Most people don't like to hear bad news. Most people are too naive to think that this is the truth. Most people don't have the time or inclination to spend hours and hours reading about banking or history. The subject of banking and economics is made complicated to further confuse those that would like to learn. When you get home from work after a long day, come home to your wife and kids,are you going to start reading about how a fractional reserve banking system will one day crumble leaving you helpless to survive? Or will you just pretend that everything is going to be okay and pop on sportscenter? It is not rocket science it is human nature.
"

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

Murders, Rapists, and theives go to jail for their crimes, yet bankers are stealing from everyone and they receive no jailtime.That's why the laws need to be changed.

[

What caused this is fractional reserve banking. Is this not theft? Who is accountable?

No one wanted to see bankers receive HUGE bonuses after the taxpayer bailout, yet it happened because what they did was legal.

Do I really have to explain what happened? I will. But do I really have to?

The only thing that will save us in a recession is MORE money it will go on until the system inevitably crashes.

OK,let me ask you something. What brought this country out of the great depression? What has been done to try and bring us out of this recession? MORE MONEY. Just a list of bailouts. I can explain this in greater detail if you'd like and give you more examples of how money is poured on the problem which inturn cause a larger problem down the road.
1970 - Penn Central Railroad
1971 - Lockheed Corporation
1980 - Chrysler Corporation
1984 - Continental Illinois[3]
1991 - Executive Life Insurance Company, by states assessing other insurers
1998 - Long-Term Capital Management, by banks and investment houses, not government (see LTCM page).
2003 - Parmalat
2008 - The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc.
2008 - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
2008 - The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc. bailed out by the federal government and Berkshire Hathaway
2008 - Morgan Stanley bailed out by The Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ
2008-2009 - American International Group, Inc. multiple times
2008 - Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008[19]
2008 - 2008 United Kingdom bank rescue package
2008 - Citigroup Inc.
2008 - General Motors Corporation and Chrysler LLC- though not technically a bailout, a bridge loan was given to the auto manufacturers by the U.S. government, this is referred to by most as a bailout
2009 - Bank of America to help it absorb known losses that were much greater than revealed to shareholders incurred by its buyout of Merrill Lynch
2009 - CIT Group $3 billion by its bondholders in a failed attempt to avoid a bankruptcy. This bailout only delayed the bankruptcy.
Also wanted to add the importance of The New Deal and WW2 in this country moving past the great depression. I can explain that too if you'd like.

Thing is it is not common knowledge in the mainstream in the mainstream this kind of thinking is met with troubled faces and glazed over expressions and deaf ears. Most people don't like to hear bad news. Most people are too naive to think that this is the truth. Most people don't have the time or inclination to spend hours and hours reading about banking or history. The subject of banking and economics is made complicated to further confuse those that would like to learn. When you get home from work after a long day, come home to your wife and kids,are you going to start reading about how a fractional reserve banking system will one day crumble leaving you helpless to survive? Or will you just pretend that everything is going to be okay and pop on sportscenter? It is not rocket science it is human nature.

Now I am not sure what you disagree with here? Would you like me to give examples about reactions to bad news? How about economics being made complicated?(Some things are actually complicated but fractional reserve banking is grade school math).

"I guess I should warn you, if I turn out to be particularly clear, you've probably misunderstood what I've said."
Alan Greenspan

What do you like to do after a long stressful day at work?

If you address a more specific statement or sentence I will explain better.

 

[WhoWee]

View attachment 31576[

What caused this is fractional reserve banking. Is this not theft? Who is accountable?

Do I really have to explain what happened? I will. But do I really have to?

When you say "Murders, Rapists, and theives go to jail for their crimes, yet bankers are stealing from everyone and they receive no jailtime" and said "What caused this is fractional reserve banking. Is this not theft? Who is accountable?" - I'm not able to follow your logic.

To compare the legal issuance of loans to murder and rape sounds a tad dramatic.

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

When you say "Murders, Rapists, and theives go to jail for their crimes, yet bankers are stealing from everyone and they receive no jailtime" and said "What caused this is fractional reserve banking. Is this not theft? Who is accountable?" - I'm not able to follow your logic.

To compare the legal issuance of loans to murder and rape sounds a tad dramatic.

Well originally I wasn't comparing murderers or rapists to bankers I was making a point that those crimes are punished, unlike stealing from generations of American taxpayers. It really doesn't stop with Americans either seeing as this system has been adopted around the world. World Bank? Actually the amount of damage done, I don't really see what makes a murderer any worse, it is theft either way, a murderer steals life and a banker steals money, money gives life. If you can't see the damage done and the potential damage, then we are bound to disagree about how dramatic that statement really is. But was there anything else there that you want me to explain?

 

[WhoWee]

Well originally I wasn't comparing murderers or rapists to bankers I was making a point that those crimes are punished, unlike stealing from generations of American taxpayers. It really doesn't stop with Americans either seeing as this system has been adopted around the world. World Bank? Actually the amount of damage done, I don't really see what makes a murderer any worse, it is theft either way, a murderer steals life and a banker steals money, money gives life. If you can't see the damage done and the potential damage, then we are bound to disagree about how dramatic that statement really is. But was there anything else there that you want me to explain?

Every murder - murders. Every banker does not steal - there is a difference.

 

[BilPrestonEsq]

Every murder - murders. Every banker does not steal - there is a difference.

Yeah I realize Joe Shmoe the teller at your local bank is not a murdering rapist. Is it not obvious that I am referring to someone who affects policy and not some random guy that works at the bank?

 

[WhoWee]

Yeah I realize Joe Shmoe the teller at your local bank is not a murdering rapist. Is it not obvious that I am referring to someone who affects policy and not some random guy that works at the bank?

You've cast a pretty wide net. If you have a few specific examples of situations where you believe a crime has gone unpunished it might be more productive than generalizing.

 

[brainstorm]

Ok just to be totally clear: The problem is fractional reserve banking. And a government that will bail out these banks. Banks in this system will loan out money with no fear as they will get their money back from the government(us) if they default. Fractional reserve banking creates a never ending cycle of inflation and debt.

First of all, people don't have to put their money in accounts that are used for lending. They can put cash in a safe. Second, how does making money available for borrowing create inflation. You are assuming that as long as money is available, people have to borrow and spend as much of it as possible. This just isn't necessary. People can conserve spending and borrow as little as possible or nothing. If anything is responsible for inflation, it is the belief that spending more to make more is a good idea. This is what causes people to get the maximum loan they qualify for instead of buying a cheap house in a less lucrative area.

I agree and that is one of the major problems. My list of conspiracy theories? Could you explain that please?

Sorry, I guess I was just ranting back because I get irritated hearing that it's a system-problem without any acknowledgment of the various individual choices and cultural submission that comes into play. People don't HAVE to conform to social-economic culture. They do so because they want to "get ahead" "in the rat race." They choose for upward mobility instead of centering themselves on how to create the most stable economic basis for living well without creating risk and stress for themselves and others.

How do you suppose we would recover if the value of a dollar dropped to 5 cents. Who is going to sell you food or water for something that has no value?

You can start or work at a farm for food. You can drill wells for water. If you're good at it, you can sell it to people for as fair a price as you can muster.

What money are you multiplying? What quick profit? Quick profits are only allowed by law, that is what I am talking about changing. Anyways the ability to make quick profits would cease to exist because there is no more money. I would be worrying about where I am going to get food just like everyone else.

I think you're failing to attribute any responsibility to the borrower, and that is one-sided imo.

I have thought of that, it is absolutely true, but, what good are these acheivements if the system responsible will untimately destroy everything that was created by it. The point is the growth isn't real.

Money is an abstract measure of value. GDP and growth are abstract measures derived from a multitude of different sectors and applied in different ways. When houses are constructed, that is real economic growth. When food is produced and distributed, that is growth. When people develop wisdom to live more efficiently, material production services more people per unit output and that is growth. The only thing you're concerned about is money.

Exactly that is the problem, try to convince someone of this and its a 'conspiracy theory' as soon as contradicting information is seen as a 'conspiracy theory' it loses all credibility, even if it is not a theory but factual information.

If people uncritically dismiss something because it's labelled "conspiracy theory," then they're not rigorous critical thinkers in the first place, are they?

I didn't put a ton of thought into that scenario but atleast there would be something of real value in that community. And if the dollar falls to a couple cents their silver would be worth 100,000 dollars(or whatever it works out to be) an ounce.

And do you expect other commodities to hyper-inflate as well? If so, why? Do you think spending is going to soon increase dramatically for some reason? I tend to think that with a shift to republicanism in government, it is more likely that we'll see fiscal conservatism result in some deflation, since that is what occurred when GWBush was president. The problem is that many people don't like that because they don't know how to keep everyone economically afloat when everyone's guarding money.

The point of that really is that they would be self sufficient, so whatever happens to the unstable currency it would have no effect on there way of life or chances of survival. Thats what I think is really necessary. Self sustaining communities not dependant on a huge and aging infrascruture or a broken banking system.

True, the more means of everyday self-sustainment people have, the less they are affected by economic crises BUT that also requires them being independent of debt, taxes, and liens that can result in loss of property.

A new system has to grow from the inside out. The current system is too big to change, and the mainstream view is just too stubborn. Impossible to change in my eyes.

The reasons "it" doesn't change are 1) people have reasons like yours to believe it won't change 2) people see "it" as a unified thing instead of a collection of relatively distinct institutions and 3) people don't see themselves and others as directly constituting these institutions by their actions and acceptance of them. You can change people, but why do you start with the most radical foundations instead of starting by asking how people who want to payoff and/or avoid debt could achieve their goal and what this would involve on the part of various governmental and non-governmental actors?

If changed from the inside out, and the growth of real wealth possible, the old system would become useless and fade out over time.

It has already for some and for others it would continue even if the old institutions were dismantled.

I just want everyone to be insulated from financial meltdown and from dependence on energy companies.

Go into business in solar panels. The problem is that they've been market-positioned (i.e. priced) to the point of themselves being a form of debt that gets paid off over a certain number of years.

Amish people wouldn't even know what happened! Not that we have to all become amish! I think you know what I mean.
If you think that I am painting an unrealistically bleak future if nothing is changed than please tell me where I am going wrong.

Amish economics does seem amazingly independent, from my limited perspective. It would be interesting if someone was trying to adapt some of those economic practices to modern life.

 

[russ_watters]

Locked pending moderation.