News Is Polygamy Legally Permitted in Canada?

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Polygamy is not legally permitted in Canada, as the country recognizes only monogamous marriages under the law. The discussion highlights the ongoing debates surrounding marriage equality, particularly regarding same-sex marriage, and the implications of religious definitions versus civil rights. Many argue that marriage should be a civil institution, allowing equal rights for all couples regardless of sexual orientation, while religious institutions can define marriage as they see fit. The conversation also touches on the financial and legal motivations for marriage, emphasizing the need for equitable treatment under the law. Overall, the dialogue reflects a broader societal struggle over the intersection of legal rights and personal beliefs.
  • #301
California Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
By JOHN SCHWARTZ
Published: May 26, 2009

The California Supreme Court upheld a ban on same-sex marriage today, ratifying a decision made by voters last year that runs counter to a growing trend of states allowing the practice.

The decision, however, preserves the 18,000 marriages performed between the court’s decision last May that same-sex marriage was lawful and the passage by voters in November of Proposition 8, which banned it. Supporters of the proposition argued that the marriages should no longer be recognized.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/27/us/27marriage.html

Apparently it will be put back on the ballot again. After all the right to same sex marriages was changed by majority vote, it will simply be reversed by another vote. After another period of legality, another flood of marriages, the 18,000 valid weddings now swelling to greater numbers the next cycle and the morally intrusive will be faced with a lost cause.
 
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  • #302
LowlyPion said:
After all the right to same sex marriages was changed by majority vote, it will simply be reversed by another vote. After another period of legality, another flood of marriages,
Wouldn't it be easier to simply have a closed season, like hunting?
So gay marriages would be allowed in the spring and summer, but then banned again to protect morality when the weather starts getting bad.
 
  • #303
I would expect this to go to the US supreme court.

When Prop 8 was passed, apparently there was a last minute disinformation campaign that threw the black vote [a bit of irony considering the long and historic battle for civil rights, for blacks]. So it may be that the bill could be overturned fairly soon given another popular vote.
 
  • #304
I think the general trend is inexorable. There will be gay marriages universally. There will be gays in the military. The morality police will be left on the side-lines to do their cluck-clucking.
 
  • #305
Ivan Seeking said:
I would expect this to go to the US supreme court.

When Prop 8 was passed, apparently there was a last minute disinformation campaign that threw the black vote [a bit of irony considering the long and historic battle for civil rights, for blacks]. So it may be that the bill could be overturned fairly soon given another popular vote.

So you believe that it is ironic that blacks would vote against gay marriage? Maybe it is because they realize that gay marriage is not a race issue. It is a marriage issue.
 
  • #306
It is a religious issue for many Americans. Blacks are more religious than average. The prevaling religious view is that God is anti-gay, although recent interpretations of religious texts suggest that God will tolerate gays using some sort of "don't ask don't tell" policy. This then amounts to tolerating gays in society, but not allowing gays to marry.
 
  • #307
drankin said:
Maybe it is because they realize that gay marriage is not a race issue. It is a marriage issue.
Many states had laws against mixed race marriages because it was similarly against God/Morality/The American Way of Life and would devalue marriage and cause a moral breakdown in society.
This was only overturned by the USSC in 1967
 
  • #308
drankin said:
So you believe that it is ironic that blacks would vote against gay marriage? Maybe it is because they realize that gay marriage is not a race issue. It is a marriage issue.

Gay people aren't entitled to their civil rights and equal treatment under the law? Truthfully, I could care less about gay marriage. What I care about is people being treated as second-class citizens. We are all equal in the eyes of the law; at least, that is the theory. I also note that this was once a core Republican principle.
 
  • #309
mgb_phys said:
Many states had laws against mixed race marriages because it was similarly against God/Morality/The American Way of Life and would devalue marriage and cause a moral breakdown in society.
This was only overturned by the USSC in 1967

Interesting. The bible is full of examples of mixed marriages.

Again, that was a race issue, this is not.
 
  • #310
Ivan Seeking said:
Gay people aren't entitled to their civil rights and equal treatment under the law? Truthfully, I could care less about gay marriage. What I care about is people being treated as second-class citizens. We are all equal in the eyes of the law; at least, that is the theory. I also note that this was once a core Republican principle.

That's just it. Does specifying marriage to be between a man and a woman equate to gays being second class citizens? I don't see it that way and I don't believe blacks in California see it that way.
 
  • #311
Count Iblis said:
It is a religious issue for many Americans. Blacks are more religious than average. The prevaling religious view is that God is anti-gay, although recent interpretations of religious texts suggest that God will tolerate gays using some sort of "don't ask don't tell" policy. This then amounts to tolerating gays in society, but not allowing gays to marry.

My reading of Leviticus is that God is not only anti-gay but also advocates their execution. I've always thought it odd that the churches use Leviticus to support their argument that homosexuality is immoral, yet back off from God's command that they be executed.

Cherry picking the parts of the Bible that one likes and ignoring the parts one doesn't like no doubt has contributed to the large number of denominations and contradictions in their beliefs.
 
  • #312
skeptic2 said:
My reading of Leviticus is that God is not only anti-gay but also advocates their execution. I've always thought it odd that the churches use Leviticus to support their argument that homosexuality is immoral, yet back off from God's command that they be executed.

Cherry picking the parts of the Bible that one likes and ignoring the parts one doesn't like no doubt has contributed to the large number of denominations and contradictions in their beliefs.

It's not cherry picking. What parts are being ignored? Leviticus is Old Testament, Christianity is based on the New Testament. Assuming using the term "churches" you are referring to Christians. I'm not defending every denominations stance on the issue but in general there is not a theological dichotomy when referring to homosexuality in scripture.
 
  • #313
Ivan Seeking said:
Gay people aren't entitled to their civil rights and equal treatment under the law?

I don't support homosexual marriage for the same reason I don't support heterosexual marriage: it's not the government's place.

Ivan Seeking said:
We are all equal in the eyes of the law; at least, that is the theory. I also note that this was once a core Republican principle.

Indeed, the Republican party was once a single-issue party with that as its sole plank.
 
  • #314
CRGreathouse said:
I don't support homosexual marriage for the same reason I don't support heterosexual marriage: it's not the government's place.



Indeed, the Republican party was once a single-issue party with that as its sole plank.

I agree with you. It took me some time to figure it out but because marriage really is a religious institution, the government should make no distinctions concerning it. Why should a single person be taxed differently that a married person? for example.
 
  • #315
(Referring to post #312)
The Christian churches do not hesitate to refer to Lev 18:22, even though it is Old Testament, to justify their stance on homosexuality yet totally ignore Lev 20:13 which says that homosexuals should be put to death. Is that not cherry picking?

This really is no different from them using Lev 25:44 to justify slavery a few centuries earlier. It seems to me if a church is going to accept and promote some passages of a book of the Bible but reject others, it requires a bit of an explanation.

The real question is what is the state's interest in maintaining marriage between only a man and a woman. Though you may not see the specifying of marriage to be only between a man and a woman equate to gays being second class citizens, homosexuals do see it that way.

Though marriage is sanctioned by the church, it also satisfies many civil purposes such as child support, spousal support, and inheritance. Without marriage many women would have to, and do, rely on the state for support while they are raising children. These same issues are important to homosexuals. The state has a very important role in marriage.
 
  • #316
skeptic2 said:
(Referring to post #312)
The Christian churches do not hesitate to refer to Lev 18:22, even though it is Old Testament, to justify their stance on homosexuality yet totally ignore Lev 20:13 which says that homosexuals should be put to death. Is that not cherry picking?

This really is no different from them using Lev 25:44 to justify slavery a few centuries earlier. It seems to me if a church is going to accept and promote some passages of a book of the Bible but reject others, it requires a bit of an explanation.

The real question is what is the state's interest in maintaining marriage between only a man and a woman. Though you may not see the specifying of marriage to be only between a man and a woman equate to gays being second class citizens, homosexuals do see it that way.

Though marriage is sanctioned by the church, it also satisfies many civil purposes such as child support, spousal support, and inheritance. Without marriage many women would have to, and do, rely on the state for support while they are raising children. These same issues are important to homosexuals. The state has a very important role in marriage.


As far as child support, it's simple. Whomever has custody receives child support from the biological or adopted parent if he/she does not share the household. Marriage has nothing to do with it.
 
  • #317
Alas the perils of addressing too many different things in one post. It makes it easy to cherry pick the issues one wants to discuss and ignore the issues one does not.
 
  • #318
drankin said:
That's just it. Does specifying marriage to be between a man and a woman equate to gays being second class citizens? I don't see it that way and I don't believe blacks in California see it that way.
Of course it does. It's explicit discrimination against gays: e.g. it prevents gay couples from getting tax benefits that straight couples receive.
 
  • #319
skeptic2 said:
Alas the perils of addressing too many different things in one post. It makes it easy to cherry pick the issues one wants to discuss and ignore the issues one does not.

Do you want to discuss theology or the OP? I'm not cherry picking, I'm trying to stay on topic.
 
  • #320
signerror said:
Of course it does. It's explicit discrimination against gays: e.g. it prevents gay couples from getting tax benefits that straight couples receive.

That gets back to the idea that maybe the change should be that the government makes no distinction between married and unmarried individuals. But, that isn't going to happen anytime soon if at all. If tax status was the only factor, that could be appended to include "unions" leaving the religious institution of marriage alone.
 
  • #321
drankin said:
Interesting. The bible is full of examples of mixed marriages.
"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
According to the Virginia judge who supported the law. It is possible to believe there may be some disconnect between Jesus' teachings and some of his alleged followers.

Again, that was a race issue, this is not.
"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not to marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."
That sounds equally applicable to same-sex marriages.

I agree with you. It took me some time to figure it out but because marriage really is a religious institution, the government should make no distinctions concerning it. Why should a single person be taxed differently that a married person? for example.
Perhaps it will go the other way? More financial agreements will come under the rule of the church.
Do you Dankin take this cell phone contract for better or worse, for richer or poorer until Verizon do you part. Amen
 
  • #322
mgb_phys said:
"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
According to the Virginia judge who supported the law. It is possible to believe there may be some disconnect between Jesus' teachings and some of his alleged followers.


"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not to marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."
That sounds equally applicable to same-sex marriages.


Perhaps it will go the other way? More financial agreements will come under the rule of the church.
Do you Dankin take this cell phone contract for better or worse, for richer or poorer until Verizon do you part. Amen

Absolutely, there will always be some disconnect between Jesus' teachings and some of his alleged followers.

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival..." think about these words and how it would apply to a marriage between people of the same sex. Which has never been fundamental to our existence.

I don't understand your last point.
 
  • #323
You made the excellent point that the solution to the whole problem is for the state to not marry anyone.
People should just be free to nominate a significant other for any legal requirements.

Then if a couple want a Priest/Rabbi/Iman/Jedi to wave a magic wand over their relationship they are free to invent whatever ceremonies they want. But it's nothing to do with the state.

Taking it to the other extreme, if the church demands a say in what for most people is just a tax/pension/visa convenience then maybe they should also have a say in a much bigger commitment like a mortgage or a RRSP.
 
  • #324
mgb_phys said:
You made the excellent point that the solution to the whole problem is for the state to not marry anyone.
People should just be free to nominate a significant other for any legal requirements.

Then if a couple want a Priest/Rabbi/Iman/Jedi to wave a magic wand over their relationship they are free to invent whatever ceremonies they want. But it's nothing to do with the state.

Taking it to the other extreme, if the church demands a say in what for most people is just a tax/pension/visa convenience then maybe they should also have a say in a much bigger commitment like a mortgage or a RRSP.

Churches don't need to have a say on finances of private citizens. And if they think they do, that would be between the private citizen and the church. Not the state. I don't see where that is even a concern, anyway.
 
  • #325
I don't see where that is even a concern, anyway.
I think I was agreeing with you!

Slightly off topic, is there any New Testament basis for anti-gay rulings. Other than St. Paul of course and if you stuck by his writings you wouldn't let women in either. In fact you generally get the feeling that even christians wouldn't be allowed in his church!
 
  • #326
mgb_phys said:
I think I was agreeing with you!

Slightly off topic, is there any New Testament basis for anti-gay rulings. Other than St. Paul of course and if you stuck by his writings you wouldn't let women in either. In fact you generally get the feeling that even christians wouldn't be allowed in his church!

I apologize for not following you.

There is some basic doctrine concerning homosexuality in the New Testament. I'll look it up and PM you when I get home.

There are a lot of things many churches have deviated from to stay "with the times". But, I'm old school, if you don't take it as it is then you should not take (cherry pick) any of it.

As long as people are handing out money to a church there will be a McChurch that is "just right" for you.
 
  • #327
drankin said:
That's just it. Does specifying marriage to be between a man and a woman equate to gays being second class citizens? I don't see it that way and I don't believe blacks in California see it that way.

Actually yes it does. There are practical issues about such mundane things as child custody, inheritance exemptions, income tax breaks, that flow to committed heterosexual partners that are not available under the law. These considerations result in unequal treatment. Not making civil unions available to same sex individuals then is a discrimination every bit as antithetical to the notion of equal protection as race.

As to blacks supporting Prop 8 in the last election, let's see how they vote in the next, after being reminded that there but for the Grace of God were they not all that long ago, simply because of the color of their skin.

I'm all for churches being as prejudiced as they want to be as to their membership and their traditions. If Mormons want to believe that blacks can't be Mormon priests, then let them cleave to their Curse of Cain beliefs. Or if Fundamentalists want to believe that gays are an abomination ... then I don't have to join if I don't agree. That can remain within the faith and I see no need for secular interference in their business.

However for them to want to impose their moral beliefs secularly, by saying that souls cannot co-join in legally recognized secular unions, and enjoy the same benefits thereof, merely because they are the same sex, looks to me to be precisely the kind of tyranny against the few that the First Amendment anticipates in setting forth the Establishment Clause.
 
  • #328
drankin said:
It took me some time to figure it out but because marriage really is a religious institution, the government should make no distinctions concerning it.

So your point is at least the government should make no law prohibiting gay marriage?
 
  • #329
skeptic2 said:
So your point is at least the government should make no law prohibiting gay marriage?

My point is that the government should make no law concerning marriage. Gay or otherwise. There should be no discrimination between a single person or a married person. Gay person or heterosexual person. White person or black person. The only discrimination I think we can all agree on is age, that is the distinction between children and adults. Pretty much solves the controversy IMO.

Of course, this would never happen.
 
  • #330
LowlyPion said:
Actually yes it does. There are practical issues about such mundane things as child custody, inheritance exemptions, income tax breaks, that flow to committed heterosexual partners that are not available under the law. These considerations result in unequal treatment. Not making civil unions available to same sex individuals then is a discrimination every bit as antithetical to the notion of equal protection as race.

As to blacks supporting Prop 8 in the last election, let's see how they vote in the next, after being reminded that there but for the Grace of God were they not all that long ago, simply because of the color of their skin.

I'm all for churches being as prejudiced as they want to be as to their membership and their traditions. If Mormons want to believe that blacks can't be Mormon priests, then let them cleave to their Curse of Cain beliefs. Or if Fundamentalists want to believe that gays are an abomination ... then I don't have to join if I don't agree. That can remain within the faith and I see no need for secular interference in their business.

However for them to want to impose their moral beliefs secularly, by saying that souls cannot co-join in legally recognized secular unions, and enjoy the same benefits thereof, merely because they are the same sex, looks to me to be precisely the kind of tyranny against the few that the First Amendment anticipates in setting forth the Establishment Clause.

I believe in civil unions with all the same benefits of marriage. My only gripe is calling it "marriage". Leave that as a religious distinction.