Is Reverse Discrimination Justified in Today's Society?

[Tyro]

Originally posted by Raven
One post even showed a hierarchy of intelligence that placed blacks at the bottom of the list (note: the existence of the idea is quite telling of societies’ beliefs).

I am only relaying what I read online a while ago. Please do not shoot the messenger. I note that you did not mention me explicitly, and thank you for that. However, I am just pointing that out before someone accuses me of something unpleasant.

From my prose, you can quite clearly see I do not see eye to eye with the connotations of those reports. The reason for that is because I feel that IQ is the complex product of many factors, social background included. The reports may state the facts, and possibly even truthfully, from unbiased authors, but they fail to take into account why the racial disparity exists. Until this is acknowledged, it is as pointless as saying a BMW Z3 outspeeds a SUV...Of course it does, the disparity runs deeper than the speed results alone.

Originally posted by Tyro:
As for the occasional reports you see floating around saying that the racial IQs are, in decreasing order: White, Hispanic then Black...hence the need for affirmative action...let me point out that affirmative action is really just inverse racism. "Lets fix racism by being racist." Duh...again. If you can't make the grades then tough luck...its nothing personal about your race. All affirmative action really says at a fundamental level is "Race counts". The message we are trying to get across with anti-racism laws is that "Race does NOT count".

 

[adrenaline]

Raven is spot on. It is this unconscious racism that is still so much of an impediment for the minorities, much more so for the black male than any other minority group. It is much easier to rally against the obvious Jim Crow laws and lynchings but when the black male rallys against this undercurrent of subliminal racism, he is seen as an angry young man full of angst and reverse racism when we really have no idea the full extent of what he faces on a daily basis.

 

[gimpy]

Originally posted by Zero
Well...it depends on where you live. Where I live, people will throw beer bottles at black and Mexican people walking down the road, or beat up someone if they walk into the wrong bar at the wrong time.

I guess your right. It depends on where you live.

 

[Raven]

Originally posted by Tyro
I am only relaying what I read online a while ago. Please do not shoot the messenger. I note that you did not mention me explicitly, and thank you for that. However, I am just pointing that out before someone accuses me of something unpleasant.

Tyro I could tell from the context of your entry that it was a quote and not your words or your point of view. I certainly did not mean to implicate anything against you. I just felt that the idea that such a thought existed found anywhere in society was quite scary and it needed to be reiterated.

Thank you for bringing that example to this thread.

 

[jimmy p]

Over here in England it is pretty bad. Take this example from a few days ago.

Basically, a white prison officer was fired from his job because he made a joke about Osama bin Laden and there were Asians in the room next door who could have heard.

To make it worse, a columnist in a newspaper defended the prison officer because he wasnt offending the Muslim race but a serial killer terrorist. Subsequently he got a lot of hatemail calling him a rascist, a BNP (British National Party...extreme right wing political group) member and some other insults. However none of the hate mail came from people called Ali of Shah, they were from people called Smith or Davis. Weirdo no?

Also all these foreign religions are allowed to build mosques and sinagogues or whatever they want around our country but any church built in their country would be destroyed within a week or so.

ALSO in england, we have Radio Asia and all these things like that (there used to be a TV programme called Black Britain) but if we were to have i dunno, Radio White Person, it would be called rascist and prosecuted. I have a lot of issues about racism. Especially the fact that especially where i live, the white population is becoming a minority because of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants.

Also...with equal rights in the workplace, when they employ people, there should be no 'equal rights' section asking their race or sex or whatever, that way it IS equal instead of choosing a coloured person because they need to fill the quota.

 

[Zeke]

I live in new mexico and at school it like GTA (grand thieft auto) lots of tagging gang wars they try to rank you in most of the gangsters are seprated by minorty or family gangs they usualy beat up the new kids for bieng different but who get picked on the most are the white kids (by the way I am hispanic indian) what really bothers me the horrasment they get it makes me pissed but as long as people differ in even the slighest ways there will be racial slurs/ remarks and the school tries to do somthing but about 90% of the kids are gangsters I am the class presdent and i try to do lots but its seems that there is so little i can do

 

[gimpy]

Originally posted by Zeke
I live in new mexico and at school it like GTA (grand thieft auto) lots of tagging gang wars they try to rank you in most of the gangsters are seprated by minorty or family gangs they usualy beat up the new kids for bieng different but who get picked on the most are the white kids (by the way I am hispanic indian) what really bothers me the horrasment they get it makes me pissed but as long as people differ in even the slighest ways there will be racial slurs/ remarks and the school tries to do somthing but about 90% of the kids are gangsters I am the class presdent and i try to do lots but its seems that there is so little i can do

Don't worry about those kids who are gangsters. When you get out of school and head to college or university they won't get in and won't bother anyone anymore. They are going know where in life.

 

[ShawnD]

Originally posted by Raven
Why do you think a large proportion of poverty exists among the black community?

Mostly due to laziness. There are a LOT of asian immigrants who seem to do well for themselves yet black families that have lived here for generations can't seem to get out of a rut. Why is that? The black community seems to have this weird idea that if you have a steady job, you're either a sell out or you're workin for the man or some crap like that. Asians tend to think that hard work will get you somewhere in life; they are right.
I have an asian friend whos parents came from vietnam when communism took over. Since they've been here, they've made a very nice lifestyle for themselves. My friend's mother went through a bunch of training to get some certification with food or something like that and now she manages a restaraunt. His dad does something like mix paint colors at a printing company. My friend was an honor student all through high school. For all of high school, he's never been unemployed for more than 3 weeks straight. Now, he's in lawschool and doing quite well.

If you really want to get out of the rut, you can. My friend's parents came here with no money and now they live like kings in a nice house, 2 cars, a neat karaoke setup downstairs, big screen TV, good jobs and a son who's in law school.

 

[FZ+]

ALSO in england, we have Radio Asia and all these things like that (there used to be a TV programme called Black Britain) but if we were to have i dunno, Radio White Person, it would be called rascist and prosecuted.

Consider this. We have a BNP, a party for far right pseudo-nazis. Legally speaking, we cannot prosecute them. However, we cannot have a non-BN party, even though theoretically it would be morally far superior. Why? Because there is a huge danger in forming groups to bar out minority, as opposed to groups that support their continued existence. The big word is multicultural.

Also...with equal rights in the workplace, when they employ people, there should be no 'equal rights' section asking their race or sex or whatever, that way it IS equal instead of choosing a coloured person because they need to fill the quota.

In most cases, they are legally required not to discriminate on that basis. In the cases of police recruitment etc, it is necessary to use such quotas, as it is impossible for the police to do their work if they do not adequately represent the population they are policing.

Also all these foreign religions are allowed to build mosques and sinagogues or whatever they want around our country but any church built in their country would be destroyed within a week or so.

And indeed, many of those people are exiles seeking precisely this form of religious freedom. Britain is not a theocracy, and we do not need comparision with countries that are.

Especially the fact that especially where i live, the white population is becoming a minority because of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants.

So what? Economically speaking, an influx of immigrants to prop up the UK finances is far preferable to all of OUR businesses going abroad to seek competitive employee markets, which is the alternative.

Mostly due to laziness.

You got any figures for that?

 

[adrenaline]

Originally posted by ShawnD
Mostly due to laziness. There are a LOT of asian immigrants who seem to do well for themselves yet black families that have lived here for generations can't seem to get out of a rut. Why is that? The black community seems to have this weird idea that if you have a steady job, you're either a sell out or you're workin for the man or some crap like that. Asians tend to think that hard work will get you somewhere in life; they are right.
I have an asian friend whos parents came from vietnam when communism took over. Since they've been here, they've made a very nice lifestyle for themselves. My friend's mother went through a bunch of training to get some certification with food or something like that and now she manages a restaraunt. His dad does something like mix paint colors at a printing company. My friend was an honor student all through high school. For all of high school, he's never been unemployed for more than 3 weeks straight. Now, he's in lawschool and doing quite well.

If you really want to get out of the rut, you can. My friend's parents came here with no money and now they live like kings in a nice house, 2 cars, a neat karaoke setup downstairs, big screen TV, good jobs and a son who's in law school.

This is probably the most steoreotypical racist thread I've read. I'm half Asian and grew up in the Far East so I will bash myself.

I think some of the generalizations about blacks being lazy include the erroneous presumption that they comprise the largest recepients of welfare and public assistance. The main reciepients are still white, and true, whites are the majority, so by virtue of sheer numbers will constitute the majority but most people still think the blacks constitute the majority of welfare recepients. The sad truth is,it is single mothers wether black, white, hispanic or asian who consititute the majority of welfare recepients. This is not a laziness issue as much as a social problem.

As for Asians, you would be surprised how many suck up the welfare systems in the form of the elderly over the age of 65 who have not contributed to the system prior to immigrating over here.

Welfare in the Form of Cash Payments
The table below presents the percentages of welfare use by immigrants
over the age of 65, both overall and from some of the larger
immigrant groups, in 1990.

group % on welfare
all immigrants 45%
Chinese 55%
Filipino 39%
Iranian 26%
Korean 50%
Mexican 21%
Soviet Union 66%
Vietnamese 74%
all native-born 9%

As can be seen, 45% of elderly immigrants were on welfare.
For the elderly immigrant Chinese (I am using the word Chinese in
terms of ancestry, and thus including people from not only China but
also Taiwan and Hong Kong), the group on which I am focussing here,
the figure was 55%. The Chinese figure was the highest among all
major nonrefugee immigrant groups.

If you want to know who are the least "lazy" in terms of receiving public handouts in our society, then the winner goes to the Mexicans and Middle easterners, not the Asians.

More where that came from called Welfare Facts http://www.arthurhu.com/index/awelfare.htm

Let's not forget, it's attitudes like these that affect hiring practices and promotions that negatively affect blacks and not Asians or whites. As for generations of opportunities being available to the black people here in this country, once again, that's bull****, only one and a half generation has experienced legal racial equality. There were no Jim Crow Laws against the Asians that in any way rivalled the ones against the blacks.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Wonderful adrenaline! Facts are what will kill racism, eventually. Even the Bell Curve does not say blacks are stupid. It says about equal numbers of whites and blacks are slow enough that they need help, and this is a growing social problem.

 

[Tyro]

By the way, if I may digress slightly to the issue of sexism, I read a comment in a magazine by someone in a arcturial/statistics company that the IQ curve for men tends to be broader, while for women it tends to have a smaller standard deviation. So you get less morons for women but more geniuses for men. Can anyone corroborate that?

Edit: This was from the feedback section of New Scientist a while back.

 

[Zero]

Again, I'll say that most of the things that are associated with race are really class issues, combined with residual racism against minorities. The sad part is that the poor white folks who are so actively racist have more in common with poor blacks and Hispanics than with rich white folks. In fact, poor whites often vote against their own interests, in order to make sure that minorities aren't helped either.

 

[ShawnD]

Originally posted by adrenaline
Let's not forget, it's attitudes like these that affect hiring practices and promotions that negatively affect blacks and not Asians or whites.

Blacks and Asians used to be in the same boat when it came to racism.

In the early 1900s, racism against Asians was just as bad as it was against blacks. They would be picked on in the same way, denied service, would not be hired and so forth. Look at them now, Asians are not picked on nearly as much, and they are actually seen as being smart and successful people. They started in the same spot blacks did but they've managed to get a reputation for hard work and intelligence; how strange.

 

[Semper000]

mistake will repost

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by ShawnD
Blacks and Asians used to be in the same boat when it came to racism.

In the early 1900s, racism against Asians was just as bad as it was against blacks. They would be picked on in the same way, denied service, would not be hired and so forth. Look at them now, Asians are not picked on nearly as much, and they are actually seen as being smart and successful people. They started in the same spot blacks did but they've managed to get a reputation for hard work and intelligence; how strange.

How strange? What is strange is I guess you think you are being subtle with your racism.

 

[Raven]

My original RHETORICAL question? "Why do you think a large proportion of poverty exists within the black community?"

Answer:

Originally posted by ShawnD
Mostly due to laziness.

I know there was more to your answer Shawn, but this first sentence pretty much sums up my point which you obviously missed.

The question I posted was meant solely to point out that negative stigmas exist and can be seen in the way society answers such questions. I really didn't expect anyone to give their answers, and boy, I truly didn't expect yours. You fell for the bait that I didn't even expect would be taken.

Shawn, the answer you have given is an answer that most of us have probably heard in the past either from relatives, friends, or the media in general. Handed down from generation to generation, the existence of this misinformation is very difficult to eliminate. Fortunately, a good proportion of today's society can see that your answer (laziness) is simply untrue. There are other factors at play (negative stigmas) that contribute to the problem. adrenaline addresses some of these in her post.

Shawn, you defended your answer by giving examples of asians (another minority) who have become successful through hard work. You must know that there are also examples of blacks, latinos, and other races that have also become successful through their hard work which should also be credited. Despite the equality of ones abilities and ones aspirations to succeed, these achievements were not easy to attain when society attributes handicaps to one's race.

You must also know that blacks have suffered a greater amount of negative stigmas attached to their race than any other in the world. This is especially true in the U.S. For a long period in recent history there are a lot of examples in which blacks are falsely shown as inferior. This is a huge burden to overcome even in today's society. When the majority puts you down, I assure you, you will likely be down most of your life and have to struggle harder than most others to rise up to attain one's goals.

Answers like yours only help to prove my point.

 

[Zero]

Something about immigrants from Asia: it takes a lot of work to get across the Pacific Ocean, and the process is a form of evolution-style selection. Only the most determined people are going to make such a trip, therefore those individuals are probably more likely to suceed. That doesn't mean that Asians are harder workers, it means that people willing to go through the struggle of getting here are more likely to succeed wherever they are.
On the other hand, if you go to Asia, I'm sure you'll find that the proportion of 'lazy' people is no different than among any other population worldwide.

 

[ShawnD]

Great thinkin there zero, I never thought of that.

 

[adrenaline]

Originally posted by Zero
Something about immigrants from Asia: it takes a lot of work to get across the Pacific Ocean, ...On the other hand, if you go to Asia, I'm sure you'll find that the proportion of 'lazy' people is no different than among any other population worldwide.

Yes, I agree, that is a great point Zero.

Also, the key word is the Asians made a choice to come here, the blacks didn't.

 

[ShawnD]

What about the Asians that are already here though? A lot of the kids making fantastic grades were born here.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by ShawnD
What about the Asians that are already here though? A lot of the kids making fantastic grades were born here.

Do you think their parents will accept anything less? Asian kids don't magically get better grades because of genetics. Do you think a person is going to sell all their stuff, move to America and start over, build a sucessful business, and then let their kids slack off?

 

[Carlos Hernandez]

An interesting perspective, but not one I completely agree with:

What is Racism?

Everyone talks about "racism" but no one ever defines it.
AR's assistant editor has given it a try.

by Thomas Jackson

There is surely no nation in the world that holds "racism" in greater horror than does the United States. Compared to other kinds of offenses, it is thought to be somehow more reprehensible. The press and public have become so used to tales of murder, rape, robbery, and arson, that any but the most spectacular crimes are shrugged off as part of the inevitable texture of American life. "Racism" is never shrugged off.

For example, when a white Georgetown Law School student reports that black students are less well qualified than white students, it sets off a booming, national controversy about "racism." If the student had merely murdered someone he would have attracted far less attention and criticism.

Complete text at http://www.commonsenseclub.com/racism.html

Carlos Hernandez

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Carlos Hernandez
An interesting perspective, but not one I completely agree with:

What is Racism?

Everyone talks about "racism" but no one ever defines it.
AR's assistant editor has given it a try.

I'd say he has done a good job of demonstrating the subtler points of racism.

Njorl

 

[Sting]

On the other hand, if you go to Asia, I'm sure you'll find that the proportion of 'lazy' people is no different than among any other population worldwide.

I understand your point but it depends on where you are talking about.

India, for example, is extremely populated. Because its population, there is a limited number of jobs. One can't afford to be lazy because there are people all around working hard to get that job YOU want. The only way you have a chance? Work just as hard (if not harder). Do you see what I'm getting at?

India (in particular Kerala) has to be one of the most ruthless and cut-throat of all places when it comes to education. It's highly competitive and there is no room for mistakes if you want to get ahead.

But then again, India is not classified as "Asia" according to the SAT's. I had to put my race as "other"

 

[Portlandmann]

?

Mikail Gorbachev once said, "what makes America great is that you all speak the same language". Think about that for a while and it's implications. Some say English is the language of science. What unerves me is we have about 18 million hispanics all falling over themselves to escape the poverty of there homeland for the last 20-30 years. They get here and pull the "baby trick",to quote and INS agent. Oregon spent in one year 118 million dollars in programs to teach hispanics in spanish. They have since done away with that. What comes around goes around. We can thank the rich entrepenuers who helped bring them up to make hardware and software for the computer industry, etc. etc. and now us poor people are picking up the tab.
Where are the greedy men who helped bring these people up here by supplying them jobs? I wish I knew of just one of them. And I do have some background. I was married to a mexican lady for 10 years. She was already naturalized but I learned all the dirty little tricks her people play.


"Levity of youth should be likened unto the seeds of a gourd which rattle around having yet to find fertile ground in which to grow"- one of the church guys talking to a young gun slinger in a John Wayne movie just before the kid shot him.

 

[Carlos Hernandez]

Computer terminology has been deemed "racist":

'Master' and 'slave' computer labels unacceptable, officials say
Wednesday, November 26, 2003 Posted: 3:24 PM EST (2024 GMT)


LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Los Angeles officials have asked that manufacturers, suppliers and contractors stop using the terms "master" and "slave" on computer equipment, saying such terms are unacceptable and offensive.

The request -- which has some suppliers furious and others busy re-labeling components -- came after an unidentified worker spotted a videotape machine carrying devices labeled "master" and "slave" and filed a discrimination complaint with the county's Office of Affirmative Action Compliance.

Complete text at http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.reut/index.html

 

[Carlos Hernandez]

More on racism:

Turnpike Billboard Advertises White Supremacist Organization

POSTED: 5:49 p.m. EST December 8, 2003

LAKE COUNTY, Fla. -- A billboard, pushing people to a white supremacist website, is raising some eyebrows. The giant advertisement sits along the Turnpike on the Lake-Sumter County line.

While we have chosen not to show and photos of the billboard or disclose the web site, we can tell you that most people will be unpleasantly surprised by the product advertised.

Complete article at http://www.wftv.com/news/2691401/detail.html

 

[Portlandmann]

I learned all about racism from minorities. The black people of LA are being forced out once again not by whites but by people who have little to give and at least got paid for their hard labor in the past. Unlike the black people who were not only born here but worked as slaves.

 

[Carlos Hernandez]

Is this Black racism: http://www.naawp.com/crime_stats.htm