Is the Ether Concept Equivalent to the Fabric of Space-Time in Physics?

Click For Summary
Lorentz Ether Theory (LET) is mathematically equivalent to Special Relativity (SR) but introduces an ether to explain length contraction and time dilation. While LET provides a physical mechanism for these phenomena, it is criticized for being non-falsifiable due to the undetectable ether rest frame. The discussion highlights that both LET and SR yield the same predictions, yet LET's reliance on axioms makes it less scientifically robust. The fabric of space-time, primarily associated with General Relativity, is viewed as distinct from the ether concept, as it does not imply an absolute reference frame. Ultimately, the conversation raises questions about the nature of reality in physics and the implications of adopting ether versus space-time fabric concepts.

Is the concept of an ether equivalent to that of the fabric of space-time?

  • The fabric of space-time exists but an ether does not.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Neither the fabric of space-time nor an ether really exist.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • #31
Not to mention the even larger number of physicists working on string theory, loop quantum gravity, and similar concepts that are attempting to go beyond the standard model.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
I have continued to look around for any reference about whether Lorentz's ether had a direct effect upon bodies with motion through the ether. I found a couple that stated it did, but that could be a misconception on part of the author, although I would think I would also find at least one website that states it to be a common misconception in that case, which I did not. Anyway, I decided to go straight to the source. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_phenomena" is Lorentz's 1904 paper. A couple of sentences down, he states "The first example of this kind is Michelson's well known interference-experiment, the negative result of which has led FitzGerald and myself to the conclusion that the dimensions of solid bodies are slightly altered by their motion through the aether." I also found many other statements, some made by Einstein himself who seems to have had doubts, which suggest that eventually Einstein was also leaning more toward the ether of Lorentz than his own Relativity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #33
General comment: I think that the questions and comments by grav-universe are well posed and should be encouraged. Maybe they can be improved, refined, but at no rate should they be treated dismissively.

In this line, sorry, DH, let me fight your dismissals.

On the one hand, you admit that your approach is not based on any physical reason, on any physical hypothesis about the “whys”:

D H said:
Special relativity and general relativity are kinematic theories: They explain what happens, but not how/why it happen. They describe mathematically what is to be expected but do not say how those interactions come to be. Talking about the "fabric of space-time" is in a sense attributing a "how" without any underlying mechanism.

As I expressly mentioned, I think that such approach is perfectly legitimate. Working on the basis of postulates, for which the reason is not specified, is a common and acceptable method. Afterwards observation confirms or not and that is it. “Whatever works”, like the film says. I never said that is ridiculous.

However, on the other hand, you want to live in the best of the worlds. You want to dismiss grav-universe because he looks for reasons, but when you discuss with me you want to asseverate that you do have some physical reasons for your postulates. I do not know why but you do think that the ether is a ridiculous candidate for that purpose, don’t you? And then you find a better candidate:

D H said:
The assumption that the speed of light is the same to all inertial observers is clearly motivated by Maxwell's equations. That the speed of light is the same to all observers is right there in Maxwell's equations.

Maxwell's equations differ markedly from the mathematical description of all other wave phenomena in one key aspect. The speed at which other waves propagate depends on the speed of the observer with respect to the transmission medium. That is not the case in Maxwell's equations. The speed at which electromagnetic propagate is c, period. The speed of the observer does not appear in those equations.

You are mistaken. As you yourself noted, Maxwell believed in an ether. And he believed that the speed of light of his equations was c only in the ether frame. A different thing is that Einstein realized that, if c were to vary depending on the reference frame, that might be a threat to the principle of relativity. Why so is a subtle issue whose discussion we can skip for the time being. (After all, the speed of sound is different in all frames moving relative to the air and nobody thinks that such fact ruins the principle of relativity…) Anyhow, he rightfully found that contradiction. And that is why he postulated that c is the same for all observers. By doing so he did not simply repeat Maxwell’s laws. He added a new postulate to them, one that reconciles them with relativity. I do not think this is controversial.

Conclusion:

- Yes, today's mainstream science does not care for the why of SR, it just provides a mathematical description.

- The so called LET is exactly the same as that plus an attempt at providing a why (by reference to the ether).

- This ether model, as you yourself accept, has a didactic value = it helps to better visualise the consequence of the formulas.

- Does it have a predictive value? In my opinion, it might have one in cases where absurd consequences fit within the math. For me an example of this is time travel: even if the formulas admitted it, I think it is absurd and I rely for this purpose on the conceptual foundation that the ether model provides. But that is another and a long story... The point is that the ether model does not only help to understand the math, it also puts boundaries to its meaning.
 
  • Like
Likes harrylin
  • #34
Saw said:
You want to dismiss grav-universe because he looks for reasons, but when you discuss with me you want to asseverate that you do have some physical reasons for your postulates.
No, I am dismissing Lorentz Ether Theory because it is a dead-end theory based on two incredibly ad hoc axioms and one non-scientific axiom. There is no forward path with Lorentz Ether Theory.
Saw said:
D H said:
The assumption that the speed of light is the same to all inertial observers is clearly motivated by Maxwell's equations. That the speed of light is the same to all observers is right there in Maxwell's equations.

Maxwell's equations differ markedly from the mathematical description of all other wave phenomena in one key aspect. The speed at which other waves propagate depends on the speed of the observer with respect to the transmission medium. That is not the case in Maxwell's equations. The speed at which electromagnetic propagate is c, period. The speed of the observer does not appear in those equations.
You are mistaken.
Mistaken? About what? That Maxwell's equations makes no allowance for the speed of the observer? It is very clear that they don't. The speed of the observer never enters the equations. That Einstein wasn't strongly motivated by Maxwell's equations in his choice of the invariance of the speed of light as an axiom? Read his 1905 paper. The second half is entirely devoted to Maxwell's equations.

As you yourself noted, Maxwell believed in an ether. And he believed that the speed of light of his equations was c only in the ether frame.
Maxwell believed in an ether for the simple reason that all other wave phenomena require a medium. After the fact, no such medium is required. We now know that the photon is the quantum of electromagnetic interactions -- something that Maxwell couldn't have known. Photons don't require a physical medium. They move through space. The luminiferous aether as proposed and modified by those end of the 19th century physicists cannot be detected, is not needed, and is not scientific.
 
  • #35
Let us make it clear. I have no belief in the ether. I just say that there is no reason to dismiss it as a model, which would have the advantages stated above: its being didactic and its serving to rule out absurd consequences that the math itself does not rule out.

D H said:
No, I am dismissing Lorentz Ether Theory because it is a dead-end theory based on two incredibly ad hoc axioms and one non-scientific axiom. There is no forward path with Lorentz Ether Theory.

You repeat yourself without answering my comments. In the context of the ether model, TD, LC and RofS are not simply axioms. You have not reflected about it but that is not our problem. Why don't you make a try? If you did, you would understand that those consequences are not arbitrary inventions but flow easily from the assumption of such model. And why should we assume the said model if the ether is not detectable? Well, it is a falsifiable hypothesis! Nothing that the history of science has not witnessed thousands of times.

D H said:
Mistaken? About what? That Maxwell's equations makes no allowance for the speed of the observer? It is very clear that they don't. The speed of the observer never enters the equations.

One thing is that the speed of the observer does not enter the equations and another different thing would be that the observer should observe the same speed. As I said, the equation for the speed of sound does not include the speed of the observer but that does not mean that the speed of sound is the same in all frames.

D H said:
That Einstein wasn't strongly motivated by Maxwell's equations in his choice of the invariance of the speed of light as an axiom? Read his 1905 paper. The second half is entirely devoted to Maxwell's equations.

If you take the stance of appealing to the authority of the master, then you should read all his papers, not only what he wrote when a young investigator wanting to impress his audience. (Even then, as far as I remember, he never said that the ether is disproved, only that we could "dispense with" it.) As the OP has hinted at, Einstein later on looked on the ether under a more favourable light. Ok, he said, our attempts to discover the properties of the ether have led to many difficulties. Discouraged by this, we have banned the word from our vocabulary. Instead we will simply say that "space" has the property to transmit EM waves. But we should not deceive ourselves: by eliminating the word, we have not eliminated the problem.
 
  • #36
Saw said:
I just say that there is no reason to dismiss it as a model, which would have the advantages stated above: its being didactic and its serving to rule out absurd consequences that the math itself does not rule out.
Lorentz Ether Theory has zero advantages over special relativity and many disadvantages. Physicist instructors do not teach Lorentz Ether Theory for exactly the same reason they no longer teach the caloric theory of heat. Both are defunct. The sole reason Lorentz Ether Theory has been revived as of late is because the internet is chock-full of anti-relativity, anti-zionist trolls.


In the context of the ether model, TD, LC and RofS are not simply axioms.
They are incredibly complex and ad hoc axioms. Show me how time dilation, length contraction, and relativity of simultaneity derive from the assumption of an absolute ether frame.


Until you can do so,

Thread closed.[/color]
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
3K
  • · Replies 83 ·
3
Replies
83
Views
6K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 45 ·
2
Replies
45
Views
6K
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 89 ·
3
Replies
89
Views
9K