Is the unpredictability of clouds due to QM uncertainty?

In summary, the conversation discusses two possible causes for the unpredictability of clouds: quantum indeterminacy and the complexity of cloud formation. The speaker believes that quantum indeterminacy is the correct explanation, citing the role of electrons in forming bonds and the influence of quantum uncertainty on the development of galaxies. However, the other person argues that classical simulations are sufficient for weather modeling and that classical chaos must still emerge from quantum mechanics.
  • #1
g.lemaitre
267
2
As I see it the unpredictability of clouds can have two causes:

1. quantum indeterminacy or
2. Clouds are classical objects but they are so complicated that they cannot in practice be predicted

I'm inclined to think 1 is correct. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure protons' position is highly determined but an electron's position is not. Those electrons are forming bonds with other atoms to make molecules and because it is the electrons that dictate the bond and because electrons are indeterministic, therefore the actual molecular composition of the clouds is also indeterministic.
 
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  • #2
Weather modeling is done with classical simulations, no QM is needed. A few buzzwords: chaos theory, nonlinear dynamics, dynamical system
 
  • #3
I have a real difficult time believing this. The minute temperature fluctuations in the Cosmic Microwaves Background I'm pretty sure are within the bounds of the Uncertainty Principle and it is that tiny bit of uncertainty which eventually spawned the galaxies and transformed our universe from almost completely uniform or smooth to the universe we see today. If quantum uncertainty can cause galaxies, I would think it would be able to transform clouds.
 
  • #4
My point was that QM is not needed to explain the unpredictability of clouds, classical statistical mechanics / thermodynamics is enough.

However, since QM is the more fundamental theory, classical chaos has to emerge from it somehow. How this happens is a difficult question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chaos).
 

1. What is QM uncertainty and how does it relate to clouds?

QM uncertainty, or quantum mechanical uncertainty, is a fundamental principle in quantum mechanics that states that certain properties of particles, such as their position and momentum, cannot be known simultaneously with absolute certainty. This uncertainty also applies to macroscopic phenomena, such as the behavior of clouds, as they are made up of countless particles. Therefore, the unpredictability of clouds can be attributed to QM uncertainty.

2. Can QM uncertainty fully explain the unpredictability of clouds?

While QM uncertainty plays a significant role in the unpredictable behavior of clouds, it is not the sole factor. Other factors, such as atmospheric conditions and interactions with other particles, also contribute to the unpredictability of clouds.

3. How does QM uncertainty affect weather forecasting?

Weather forecasting relies on predicting the behavior of clouds, and QM uncertainty makes this task challenging. The inherent unpredictability of clouds due to QM uncertainty makes it difficult to accurately forecast weather patterns, especially in the long term.

4. Are there any efforts to incorporate QM uncertainty into weather forecasting models?

Currently, most weather forecasting models do not take into account QM uncertainty. However, there are ongoing efforts to incorporate quantum principles into these models to improve their accuracy and account for the unpredictability of clouds.

5. Can studying QM uncertainty help us better understand and predict cloud behavior?

Studying QM uncertainty and its effects on macroscopic phenomena, like clouds, can provide insights into their behavior and potentially improve our ability to predict and understand them. However, it is a complex area of study, and more research is needed to fully understand its implications for cloud behavior.

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