Is the US Congress Hostage Crisis Over FAA Funding Justified?

[WhoWee]

Read this. You may not agree, but I would love to see a rebational rebuttal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/01/national/main20086665.shtml

You are making an argument of what COULD HAVE HAPPENED - they reached a deal - moot point.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/05/us-usa-infrastructure-faa-idUSTRE7736C020110805

Considering the stock market lost $800Billion today - and over $1Trillion in the past 10 days - I'm not overly concerned about Congress taking it's time to scrutinize an over-reach of regulations and scrutiny of Murtha-flavored PORK.

 

[Proton Soup]

51 is NOT a simple majority when you game the rules to make the vote of every eligible but unavailable member automatically represent a "no". Have you read any of the articles on this?

first of all, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. it's not like they need a 2/3 or 3/4 vote, not that kind of a supermajority. if they really miss these things by 2 votes, maybe there's not that much of a demand for it.

second, are these secret or open ballots? would there be people that might be intimidated by having to vote?

 

[turbo]

first of all, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. it's not like they need a 2/3 or 3/4 vote, not that kind of a supermajority. if they really miss these things by 2 votes, maybe there's not that much of a demand for it.

second, are these secret or open ballots? would there be people that might be intimidated by having to vote?

I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.

Did you read any of the links links in this thread? Do you propose that every person who misses a vote is a "no" vote and has to be counted that way (unlike the rest of US labor)?

What are you intimating regarding the availability of secret ballots in labor votes? Apparently you have some kind of agenda in this process. Is it amateur or professional?

 

[mege]

Nearly all modern legislative bodies are required to have a majority of their total population vote 'yay' to pass a bill. Why should unionization be any different?

Why do people have to be AGAINST something being forced on them? Then the status quo becomes unionization and the burden of 'nos' are on the employees to reject the union rather than the status quo being non-unionization with a majority required to accept the union.

Besides, what do federal employees need with a union anyhow? It's not like there's profits to skim from the government, or maybe that's the greater problem? The union PAC-machine can press pro-union officials into office then get larger contracts, etc. Vicious cycle that needs to stop somewhere.

 

[WhoWee]

I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.

Did you read any of the links links in this thread? Do you propose that every person who misses a vote is a "no" vote and has to be counted that way (unlike the rest of US labor)?

What are you intimating regarding the availability of secret ballots in labor votes? Apparently you have some kind of agenda in this process. Is it amateur or professional?

I cannot imagine the level of discourse if a regulatory body changed a 75 year custom that you were in favor of - IMO - you would be calling for Congressional hearings - wouldn't you?

 

[daveb]

The Republicans (in your example) wanted the labor issue separated from the funding issue - not a radical concept at all - considering YOU are FOR smaller and more precise Bills.

That's not what the link said:

The more politically difficult issue is a GOP proposal to overturn a National Mediation Board rule approved last year that allows airline and railroad employees to form a union by a simple majority of those voting. Under the old rule, workers who didn't vote were treated as "no" votes.

(my bold)

So (assuming the story was correct and not misleading), it was the GOP that linked the labor issue in with the funding issue.

 

[WhoWee]

The US Congress is again being held up by radicals. Once again, a normally routine procedure is being held up on ideological grounds by the far right. The GOP says that the sticking point is $16M/year in subsidies for air travel to rural communities, but the truth is that we are on track to lose $1.2 Billion this month alone because the GOP has refused to fund the FAA and allow the airlines to collect taxes on air-fare. The sticking point is whether we allow labor in the airlines industry to vote up-or-down on labor issues or whether every uncast vote is counted as a "No" (current practice, contrary to labor law in other sectors). For the sake of killing organized labor in the airline industry, the GOP is willing to forgo $1.2 Billion of revenue this month alone.

Where are the adults in this country? For that matter, where are the adults in the media who are not hammering this travesty night after night on the network news? There have been mentions here and there about the tens of thousands of people put out of work because of the halted projects, but I haven't seen any responsible reporting about the real costs of this shutdown.



http://news.yahoo.com/more-faa-shutdown-air-subsidies-071241612.html

Good news turbo - I just heard a news report that Harry Reid (Dem leader of the Senate) just took up and passed the Bill the House (led by Republicans) passed 2 weeks ago - why did Harry Reid not address this when the members were in session? I realize he needed to give MANY speeches while the Republicans worked on the debt deal in the House - but what was the Senate working on during that time? Harry Reid waited until the last minute to put a debt deal on the table - shame on you Harry Reid and the other Dems that control the Senate.

 

[mheslep]

Maybe. What is odd about it is that if you have 1000 workers, and 3 of them cast votes - 2 for, 1 against - all 1000 are now unionized.

As are all of the legacy major air carriers in the US with the exception of Delta.

 

[mheslep]

From your second link.

In other words, the National Mediation Board says that we should count the valid votes cast. Not count any uncast vote as a vote against collective representation.

Not quite. That should be count and decide representation on votes cast, no matter how small the vote count, as has not been the case for the last 75 years with air carriers, which are already all unionized with the exception of Delta (among the traditional majors).

Is it worth $1.2Billion a month to undo this decision? Apparently, the GOP thought so. I hope that the short-term compromise doesn't give away the farm.

Lost taxes are all the fault of the GOP? The House passed a bill to continue FAA funding and tax authority back in July, as the constitution mandates it alone should do via Art I, Sec 7: All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives. Give away the farm? Hostage-taking? No adults? You left out a racism charge. Look, last month did you give https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3409953&postcount=328" on your rhetoric any consideration?

 

[chrisbaird]

The US Congress is again being held up by radicals...

Terrorists holding a real gun to your head and demanding everyone pray to their god or they shoot is "hostage-taking by radicals."

Duly-elected representatives casting their votes in ways you don't agree with is called "democracy". Please don't get them confused.

 

[mheslep]

... why did Harry Reid not address this when the members were in session? ...

As I've said above, http://finance.senate.gov/newsroom/ranking/release/?id=6c60d111-377c-48c5-9f76-59f2f5cadf8d" to his credit. The bill was blocked by others in the Senate, mainly Rockefeller.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid was asked if Senate Democrats would accept the short-term House-passed FAA extension, he said:

“Yes… And I think as we -- we learned with this big deal we've just done, sometimes you have to step back and find out what's best for the country and not be bound by some of your own personal issues. And I'm willing to give that up. I hope the other senators would do the same." (Sen. Reid, Media Availability Following Debt Ceiling Vote, 8/2/11)

 

[WhoWee]

As I've said above, http://finance.senate.gov/newsroom/ranking/release/?id=6c60d111-377c-48c5-9f76-59f2f5cadf8d" to his credit. The bill was blocked by others in the Senate, mainly Rockefeller.

That's fine.

However, turbo's link had indicated that Reid refused to negotiate - which basically negates turbo's assertion that the "right Wing" was hostage holding. my bold

"Last month, in comments to the House Rules Committee and separately to reporters, Mica said the labor provision was the only issue standing in the way of the House and Senate reaching an agreement on a long-term FAA bill. He said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has refused to negotiate with Republicans on the issue."

 

[Proton Soup]

I am not making a mountain out of a molehill.

Did you read any of the links links in this thread? Do you propose that every person who misses a vote is a "no" vote and has to be counted that way (unlike the rest of US labor)?

What are you intimating regarding the availability of secret ballots in labor votes? Apparently you have some kind of agenda in this process. Is it amateur or professional?

i'm simply asking you a question about voting procedure for unions. are ballots secret or not? do people need to worry about harassment if they do vote? it's a simple question that goes to why someone might not want to go on the record as voting no. can you answer my simple question here, or perhaps you have some kind of agenda?

 

[turbo]

i'm simply asking you a question about voting procedure for unions. are ballots secret or not? do people need to worry about harassment if they do vote? it's a simple question that goes to why someone might not want to go on the record as voting no. can you answer my simple question here, or perhaps you have some kind of agenda?

I have been a shop steward, a union officer and negotiator. In our union, votes were generally held in-person, and in shifts, since we represented shift-workers in the pulp and paper industry. Members who did not vote for some reason did not have their votes counted as "No".

Our union rules might have varied from others, so don't make generalizations from this, but I do have experience in this area. The insistence by the GOP that the anti-union tactic used against transportation workers is perpetuated is typical, and unfair. Every member who is on vacation, sick leave, family leave, etc is automatically counted as a "no" vote for purposes of organization. As an illustrative example, how many Senators did it take to pass the FAA funding extension? Two Senators to propose and approve a unanimous consent resolution. Only two. What if all the absent Senators were counted as "nays"?

 

[Proton Soup]

I have been a shop steward, a union officer and negotiator. In our union, votes were generally held in-person, and in shifts, since we represented shift-workers in the pulp and paper industry. Members who did not vote for some reason did not have their votes counted as "No".

Our union rules might have varied from others, so don't make generalizations from this, but I do have experience in this area. The insistence by the GOP that the anti-union tactic used against transportation workers is perpetuated is typical, and unfair. Every member who is on vacation, sick leave, family leave, etc is automatically counted as a "no" vote for purposes of organization. As an illustrative example, how many Senators did it take to pass the FAA funding extension? Two Senators to propose and approve a unanimous consent resolution. Only two. What if all the absent Senators were counted as "nays"?

fine then, don't answer the question. go on pushing your agendas while accusing others of having agendas if they happen to have a question about it, or think you're overreacting a bit.

 

[mheslep]

... As an illustrative example, how many Senators did it take to pass the FAA funding extension? Two Senators to propose and approve a unanimous consent resolution. Only two. What if all the absent Senators were counted as "nays"? ...

Most all our legislative bodies require a quorum to pass laws, including the Senate, hence the several state lawmaker's vanishing acts across state lines in an attempt to stop the democratic process.

 

[daveb]

i'm simply asking you a question about voting procedure for unions. are ballots secret or not? do people need to worry about harassment if they do vote? it's a simple question that goes to why someone might not want to go on the record as voting no. can you answer my simple question here, or perhaps you have some kind of agenda?

There can be harassment on both sides if the votes are not secret. Those voting no might feel harassed by the union, and those voting yes might feel harassed by the company reps.

 

[WhoWee]

There can be harassment on both sides if the votes are not secret. Those voting no might feel harassed by the union, and those voting yes might feel harassed by the company reps.

Perhaps the question should be WHY the regulators got involved - who called them or who sent them to render a decision?

 

[daveb]

Not sure why you quoted me on that one, but I have no idea. This isn't an item that's been on my radar all that much.

 

[WhoWee]

Not sure why you quoted me on that one, but I have no idea. This isn't an item that's been on my radar all that much.

Just furthering the conversation - I don't know how/why the regulators got involved either?

 

[CAC1001]

The US Congress is again being held up by radicals. Once again, a normally routine procedure is being held up on ideological grounds by the far right.

Just wanted to point out, but on the issue of the debt ceiling, that was the point. It has for decades been routine to just raise the debt ceiling when the country needed to take on more debt, but now the country has reached a point where to keep doing that like it's no big deal isn't something that can continue.