Is the Word Spiritual Avoided Due to Fear of Religious Implications?

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Kerrie
well, we could argue all day of whether the spiritual motivates the biological, or the biological motivates the spirituality...it's a matter of perspective truly as we don't fully know the answer, however humanity doesn't create art, music, ideas for purely biological reasons.

Wouldn't it be that much more interesting and miraculous if the "drive" that you speak of were a purely biological function of a purely biological being? Then you'd have to reconsider many of the more primary assumptions you've taken for granted (I don't mean "you" personally; I mean people in general, for the most part).

Have you seen my "Made of Meat" thread?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Mentat
Wouldn't it be that much more interesting and miraculous if the "drive" that you speak of were a purely biological function of a purely biological being? Then you'd have to reconsider many of the more primary assumptions you've taken for granted (I don't mean "you" personally; I mean people in general, for the most part).

Have you seen my "Made of Meat" thread?

mentat, here is my perspective of it...if you have a television, that's great, now you have a tv that has the potential to provide you entertainment for hours...but without electricity, some kind of live force, it does you no good...just like a human vegetable on life support, without them being alive in the brain to make individual decisions they are just flesh being kept alive by machinery...

cutting life on Earth down to just the bilogical is fine, but without the other half of it-a spirit of some sort-life would not exist...your drive to learn, understand is part biological of course, however your degree of that drive is where the human spirit kicks in...as for human instinct, yes i totally believe that is biological...

we can say this is fact: science has not been able to scientize the human or animal spirit...does this mean it doesn't exist because we can't catagorize, label and discect it?

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Why do you make these sort of declarations?

wow zero, is that the best you could respond? it's obvious you disagree, so accept and let's move on.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
wow zero, is that the best you could respond? it's obvious you disagree, so accept and let's move on.

Well, no, I really want an answer...why CAN'T things be biological? My need to eat is biological, why not my need to make music? Birds sing, animals dance as part of their mating, that is biological, isn't it?

 

[olde drunk]

ZERO

may i intrude?

ok, thanks. i would suggest that instinct is a part of an animals consciousness, whether human or otherwise. you cannot tell me that DNA or whatever imprints a young kangaroo to climb all the way up into the mother's pouch for a drink. possible? yes. probable? not much.

hunger, desire etc drive the young roo, but it is too immature to have a biological awareness of where to go.

logical, circumstantial information saves a ton of headaches when trying to wrap my brain around a complicated issue. mating, singing maybe biological, but the 'desire' to mate or sing is beyond physical.

peace,

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Well, no, I really want an answer...why CAN'T things be biological? My need to eat is biological, why not my need to make music? Birds sing, animals dance as part of their mating, that is biological, isn't it?

because spirituality is the one thing that is indidual...the ability and drive to create art unlike another is truly spiritual in my opinion...if we were pure biological robots (and i emphasize robot as automatic and non-individualized), then the ability and drive to create your own music in your own style most likely wouldn't exist (in my opinion)

this isn't a case of biological vs spiritual, but like the yin and yang-you need both to flourish as a human being...just existing is purely biological.

zero, i personally think you exemplify a lot of spirit in these forums by expressing yourself so strongly. if you were a biological robot, you wouldn't give a damn of expressing what you say is true and right (in your opinion of course :D ).

 

[selfAdjoint]

As the vegans never tire of pointing out, animals have personalities and "spirit" according to their capabilities too. It's a straw man argument to say that the antithesis of an ensouled person is a robot. Either that or begging the question, because that difference is precisely what the whole discussion is about. Can a being without a soul be "human" and creative, and all? I say yes.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by selfAdjoint
As the vegans never tire of pointing out, animals have personalities and "spirit" according to their capabilities too. It's a straw man argument to say that the antithesis of an ensouled person is a robot. Either that or begging the question, because that difference is precisely what the whole discussion is about. Can a being without a soul be "human" and creative, and all? I say yes.

i am naming the humanity and creativity as the spiritual, nothing more nothing less

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
because spirituality is the one thing that is indidual...the ability and drive to create art unlike another is truly spiritual in my opinion...if we were pure biological robots (and i emphasize robot as automatic and non-individualized), then the ability and drive to create your own music in your own style most likely wouldn't exist (in my opinion)

this isn't a case of biological vs spiritual, but like the yin and yang-you need both to flourish as a human being...just existing is purely biological.

zero, i personally think you exemplify a lot of spirit in these forums by expressing yourself so strongly. if you were a biological robot, you wouldn't give a damn of expressing what you say is true and right (in your opinion of course :D ).

Hey, robots can be individual, too. Since my hardware is biological, and each "blueprint" is unique, there's nothing in my biology that would make me anything other than an individual. Especially since brain development is based largely on environmental influences, even "identical" twins are unique.

 

[Royce]

Here your wrong in degree, Zero. It has been shown time and time again that identical twins raised apart have remarkably similar tastes behaviors and lives pointing more to genes than environment.

Why does on being a biological being preclude one having a soul or spirit? If sentience, consciousness and awareness or emergent phenomena why can't spirit be emergent. I can see on no biological survival value for art and the appreciation of beauty whether music, painting, sculptor, dance, or nature. It is part of what makes us human instead of cows.

By the way, I had an anthropology teacher tell us that humans have no instincts. We have and are born with reflexes but not instincts and have to learn everything. After a lot of thought I had to agree with him for I could not think of one instinct that we are born with.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Royce
Here your wrong in degree, Zero. It has been shown time and time again that identical twins raised apart have remarkably similar tastes behaviors and lives pointing more to genes than environment.

Why does on being a biological being preclude one having a soul or spirit? If sentience, consciousness and awareness or emergent phenomena why can't spirit be emergent. I can see on no biological survival value for art and the appreciation of beauty whether music, painting, sculptor, dance, or nature. It is part of what makes us human instead of cows.

By the way, I had an anthropology teacher tell us that humans have no instincts. We have and are born with reflexes but not instincts and have to learn everything. After a lot of thought I had to agree with him for I could not think of one instinct that we are born with.

You sort of contradict yourself on this one...are you saying that biological similarity would mean that "souls" are also very similar? That makes little sense.

"Spirit" is an undefinable, unprovable null phrase. Nothing precludes it, but nothing shows that it is extant or required either.

BTW, human beings absolutely do have instincts and biological programing, certain things we are hardwired for. If not, how is it that people of completely different backrounds, social situations, etc, react in the exact same way to stimulus? Listen to Loveline on the radio for a month, and notice how Dr. Drew and Adam can tell a person's "life story" in about 2 minutes of telephone conversation.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Hey, robots can be individual, too. Since my hardware is biological, and each "blueprint" is unique, there's nothing in my biology that would make me anything other than an individual. Especially since brain development is based largely on environmental influences, even "identical" twins are unique.

i find it interesting you didn't address my point regarding your own spirit displayed in this forum (my attempt to "prove" what i am referring to as spirit)...here i provide proof, but you perhaps don't care for the term "spirit" because of it's close relation to religion (?)...who knows, but i seem to remember a time when you proclaimed to be open minded but not so much to let your brains fall out...i thought that was quite balanced in being objective, but no more does it seem that you display this quality.

in any event, i am done trying to help you understand where i am coming from, even though i think i provided a good example of your own spirit being expressed in this forum (i can't see a robot expressing it's opinion as strongly as you do in a forum)---for now, i would like to discuss this with those who would rather share new ideas over argue over defintions and such...

bottom line is, the human life is charged from something, otherwise our flesh would literally rot...this is what is basically spiritual in my opinion.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by Zero
You sort of contradict yourself on this one...are you saying that biological similarity would mean that "souls" are also very similar? That makes little sense.

Souls would be no more similar or dissimilar than personalities and appearance. I don't see the contradiction just too many typos or what your getting at.

"Spirit" is an undefinable, unprovable null phrase. Nothing precludes it, but nothing shows that it is extant or required either.

This would depend on your or my understanding of the word spirit. If, if is exists is not material or objective; therefor, a null phrase in science. Outside of science as in ever day life spirit has many meaning and is easily defined depending on usage i.e. school spirit, esprit de corps, Spirit of St. Louis etc. There is also that which make of different from your equally nonsensical biological robot, Zombie (?).

BTW, human beings absolutely do have instincts and biological programing, certain things we are hardwired for. If not, how is it that people of completely different backgrounds, social situations, etc, react in the exact same way to stimulus? Listen to Loveline on the radio for a month, and notice how Dr. Drew and Adam can tell a person's "life story" in about 2 minutes of telephone conversation.

Look up the biological definition of "instinct", essentially, an innate complex set of behavior not learned and repeated without deviation as in a computer program of true robotic instruction sets. Name one instinct that we are born with and is not learned. I couldn't. If you are a parent you should have the experience necessary. If your not a parent then you will have to ask those that are of take someone else's word for it. I am a parent and grandparent but no expert on the subject. I am only repeating what an anthropologist told me/us. Social behavior is learned not instinctive as children grown up in isolation from other humans has shown.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i find it interesting you didn't address my point regarding your own spirit displayed in this forum (my attempt to "prove" what i am referring to as spirit)...here i provide proof, but you perhaps don't care for the term "spirit" because of it's close relation to religion (?)...who knows, but i seem to remember a time when you proclaimed to be open minded but not so much to let your brains fall out...i thought that was quite balanced in being objective, but no more does it seem that you display this quality.

in any event, i am done trying to help you understand where i am coming from, even though i think i provided a good example of your own spirit being expressed in this forum (i can't see a robot expressing it's opinion as strongly as you do in a forum)---for now, i would like to discuss this with those who would rather share new ideas over argue over defintions and such...

bottom line is, the human life is charged from something, otherwise our flesh would literally rot...this is what is basically spiritual in my opinion.

Awww, Kerrie...does this mean you won't be my date to the spring cotillion?

My personality comes through...I just consider it to be a manefestation of my unique wiring.

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
My personality comes through...I just consider it to be a manefestation of my unique wiring.

i certainly agree, but without electricity, no manifestation will occur i am comparing the spirit to electricity...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
i certainly agree, but without electricity, no manifestation will occur i am comparing the spirit to electricity...

Bioelectricity, Kerrie! Neurons firing, signals being generated by my brain, sending directions to my fingers, typing at you at 90 words a minute(hunt and peck, no less!)

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
Bioelectricity, Kerrie! Neurons firing, signals being generated by my brain, sending directions to my fingers, typing at you at 90 words a minute(hunt and peck, no less!)

so this will to to continue on arguing about this is automatic? or does a robot have the need to continue convincing me of his side? the way we function can obviously be explained by science, however there still is the "program" that commands these functions, the pure will and desire...why is your brain commanding you to express your opinions and feelings, especially so strongly? because of your will/drive/spirit/need for your individual expression...this is why people create art, make music, philosophize, etc---the human spirit...the human being (or any sort of life for that matter) would not exist without the will to, thus you have the "marriage" of spirit and matter to make life...i would say you are well proving your spirit to express the non-existance of your spirit...how very ironic.

wow, i would have to say you are a true biological robot fundamentalist.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
so this will to to continue on arguing about this is automatic? or does a robot have the need to continue convincing me of his side? the way we function can obviously be explained by science, however there still is the "program" that commands these functions, the pure will and desire...why is your brain commanding you to express your opinions and feelings, especially so strongly? because of your will/drive/spirit/need for your individual expression...this is why people create art, make music, philosophize, etc---the human spirit...the human being (or any sort of life for that matter) would not exist without the will to, thus you have the "marriage" of spirit and matter to make life...i would say you are well proving your spirit to express the non-existance of your spirit...how very ironic.

wow, i would have to say you are a true biological robot fundamentalist.

Most things I do are completely automatic. I assume (so correct me if I am wrong) but most of the things that we all do are automatic, with just a nudge of what you call "will" to get things rolling.

I'm going to be mostly polite about the whole "need to create art" business, except for this: why do guys learn to play guitar?

*edited to add* I think it is interesting that being a bio-robot doesn't bother me a bit. Certainly, it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers some people that I suggest it.

 

[Deeviant]

Originally posted by Kerrie

wow, i would have to say you are a true biological robot fundamentalist.

I just so happen to be a card carrying member of the biological robot fundamentalists so try to be just alittle more sensitive to our insensitivity.

Oh yeah, I play guitar too. I learned guitar and seek to be a performer because it will allow me to... ah.. express myself. Yup, that's it, express myself.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Deeviant
I just so happen to be a card carrying member of the biological robot fundamentalists so try to be just alittle more sensitive to our insensitivity.

Oh yeah, I play guitar too. I learned guitar and seek to be a performer because it will allow me to... ah.. express myself. Yup, that's it, express myself.

You lying POS!

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
You lying POS!

zero, as a mentor, you need to set an example and also follow the rules...this clearly violates PF guidelines...you can't expect others to obey PF rules in your forum if they see this type of talk from a mentor himself.

the "nudge" of will is what i feel is the human spirit...the need to eat, sleep, have sex etc is definitely biological...the desire to create something beyond the basic functions of humanity-art, music, great ideas is something i feel reached beyond the programming of our biological functions. don't get me wrong, as earlier i stated that spirit shouldn't be made out as some mystical religous aspect of humanity, but if that "will" to create beautiful art and music or whatever the individual desires to create unlike another is encouraged, then i think this is beautiful and needs to be appreciated.

can you honestly say and prove that your desire to play guitar is biological, or something you have a will to do for your (and maybe others') benefit? can you honestly say and prove that your desire to express yourself in this forum is purely a biological automatic response, or a will you have?

 

[Zero]

? Kerrie, I'm sorry, I should have called him a lying "piece o' crap". I'll know better in the future.

And, to remain on topic, I feel that all those things you talk about are extensions of the biological, simply expanded and refined over the millenia. Birds sing, animals make marks to let other animals know they have been there, etc.

Oh, and don't mistake my "biological machine" concept as not including free will, because I believe it exists, within the confines of biological strictures.

 

[Deeviant]

Originally posted by Kerrie
can you honestly say and prove that your desire to play guitar is biological, or something you have a will to do for your (and maybe others') benefit? can you honestly say and prove that your desire to express yourself in this forum is purely a biological automatic response, or a will you have?

I really did have quite a fit of laughter when zero mentioned guitar playing as I remember picking it up after imagining having to peel beautiful willing women off me after a paticularly masterful solo.

I would have to admit after my fantasies didn't quite work out I continued to play, to express myself. Although this expression is really just is the spreading of my ideas and thus the advancement of my agenda. I don't really feel anything spiritual although I find a strong emotional gratification out of playing and belting out a errant set of vocals now and then.

edit: spelling

 

[phoenixthoth]

i don't know why i am learning to play the guitar but it certainly ain't what i think zero thinks all guys learn for.

thought the "automatic" lyrics might be appropriate here:
Look what you're doing to me
I'm utterly at your whim
All of my defenses down
Your camera looks through me
With its X-ray vision
And all systems run aground
All I can manage to push from my lips
Is a stream of absurdities
Every word I intended to speak
Wind up locked in the circuitry

Chorus:
No way to control it
It's totally automatic
Whenever you're around
I'm walking blindfolded
Completely automatic
All of my systems are down
Down down down
Automatic
Automatic

What is this madness
That makes my motor run
And my legs too weak to stand
I go from sadness
To exhilaration
Like a robot at your command
My hands perspire and shake like a leaf
Up and down goes my temperature
I summon doctors to get some relief
But they tell me there is no cure
They tell me

Chorus

on a different note, there are those that think some people are droids (not literally androids but more of a way of being) and others are of a different variety, called beings.

http://207.70.190.98/scgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=15;t=21

 

[Kerrie]

phoenixtoth...very interesting link, i just skimmed it, but what jumped out at me was the droid vs being...i think that is another great perspective of the difference between those who just are, and those who be...

 

[Zero]

On the other hand, you folks can enjoy "being", I'll be busy "doing"...action is better than just existing.

 

[olde drunk]

Originally posted by Zero
On the other hand, you folks can enjoy "being", I'll be busy "doing"...action is better than just existing.

sorry to burst your bubble, but, being IS doing!

i'm not affaird of any bio-robot existence, there might be one in the universe. i just don't think we are it.

it serves no useful purpose to apply that idea on this reality. it is mind candy or mental masturbation (your playing with your mind, by yourself). have fun.

imho, these boards are for us to have fun and explore useful, beyond the box, ideas. bio-robots don't enhance my experience or expand practical ideas.

zero, you need glasses yet?

peace,

 

[Deeviant]

Originally posted by olde drunk
sorry to burst your bubble, but, being IS doing!

i'm not affaird of any bio-robot existence, there might be one in the universe. i just don't think we are it.

it serves no useful purpose to apply that idea on this reality. it is mind candy or mental masturbation (your playing with your mind, by yourself). have fun.

imho, these boards are for us to have fun and explore useful, beyond the box, ideas. bio-robots don't enhance my experience or expand practical ideas.

zero, you need glasses yet?

peace,

I, for one, welcome our new bio-robot overloards!

 

[Kerrie]

Originally posted by Zero
On the other hand, you folks can enjoy "being", I'll be busy "doing"...action is better than just existing.

action of a biological robot is just existing...

oldedrunk...

imho, these boards are for us to have fun and explore useful, beyond the box, ideas. bio-robots don't enhance my experience or expand practical ideas.

well said, as i tried to point out to zero, his will and drive to express himself on these boards is a perfct example of spirit...the "biological robot" does not have this desire to express him or herself...i think the term "spiritual" truly scares him, for some silly reason...

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Kerrie
action of a biological robot is just existing...

oldedrunk...




well said, as i tried to point out to zero, his will and drive to express himself on these boards is a perfct example of spirit...the "biological robot" does not have this desire to express him or herself...i think the term "spiritual" truly scares him, for some silly reason...

Nah, it just strikes me as something that isn't needed to explain me...I hope you realize I'm not trying to attack you here.

You equate "biological robot" with something different from what I do, probably because you also don't believe that a sufficiently advanced computer could gain sentience. I think that my "will" and "spirit" are manefestations of my biological programming. I come at it from the perspective that, as social animals, we have the biological urge to commune with our fellow humans. You choose to see it in a different way, which is equally cool and groovy(not in equal parts, though...you lean heavier towards grooviness, while I'm stacked more towards the cool-itude)