Is This Really Mussolini with My Great Grandfather?

[Petronius]

Hello,

I recently received a photograph from my father, that supposedly depicts my great grandfather in a machine gun unit with Mussolini. According to my father, my great grandfather would often tell tales about being a in a unit with Mussolini and that he was "a big mouth". My father later found this photograph when my grandparents died. Sadly we have no information on what unit my great grandfather served in.

My great grandfather is apparently the one highlighted in the middle row with Mussolini in the top row. I was wondering if this was indeed possible and if anyone might be able to identify this unit/regiment.

 

[Mark44]

The same picture appears here -- http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ww1-a...ce-usa-etc-1914-1918/ww1-italian-army-684761/ -- are you the poster on that site?
The figure in the upper row doesn't look much like Mussolini, but half of his face is in shadow from his cap, and a lot of the rest isn't lit very well.

 

[Petronius]

Just asked my dad, it seems he asked the same question on that forum. Thanks for your response!

 

[epenguin]

As I briefly reviewed a biog of the man (and now need to complete it) in thenHistory Resources thread in this section of the forum, I felt obliged to spend several minutes research on this question!
At first sight it does not look very like - but we are mostly familiar with photos of a later time.
It seemed more plausible after I saw this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Benito_Mussolini_1917.jpg and several photos if you rummage into this https://pin.it/2G7UqM4
Anything at all by which you might date the photo might help.
The biog mentioned - but there are many others- gives him wounded (by an accident) on 27 Feb 1917, after which he was never again in the front line. But it was not clear when he was discharged from the Army, so he might just have been attached to a unit in a behind-the-lines role after recovery, on the other hand on 1Aug 1917 he left hospital on crutches.The war still had more than a year to run, but in 1918 he was publishing political articles. I cannot make out any rank badges on him. In Aug 1916 he was prompted caporale maggiore (and after wounding, sergeant). I am guessing that a corporal's stripes are on lower sleeve like the man in front row left. but you cannot see this area on the candidate.
Then the biog gives him as being in a Bersagliere (light infantry marksmen) regiment, while this is a machine gun regiment. Then again there was constant reorganisation and improvisation during the war.

You are more likely to encounter relevant knowledge on Quora, where there is an incredible amount of military-historical expertise.

 

[Klystron]

Does the photo contain enough information for facial recognition software, perhaps coupled with ageing software? A forensic work up of the entire photo could help identify the participants and time more precisely than isolating on a particular celebrity figure.

Apropos to @epenguin's post, the figure in question on the top row appears to be supported by a medic to his left, assuming the bit of visible armband identifies a medic; perhaps due to a recent wound. A soldier in 1917 recovering from a wound or gas attack might be temporarily assigned to an available unit; not necessarily their unit of record. The soldier does resemble the archived photo on Wikipedia using bare eyeball comparison.

One may also wish to identify the figure third from the left, bottom row, displaying a handgun. He might be the unit commander. The two figures top left look interesting; possibly alpine riflemen attached to a machine gun unit? Perhaps they appear different due to their uniforms and elevation in the window.

 

[epenguin]

Does the photo contain enough information for facial recognition software, perhaps coupled with ageing software? A forensic work up of the entire photo could help identify the participants and time more precisely than isolating on a particular celebrity figure.

Apropos to @epenguin's post, the figure in question on the top row appears to be supported by a medic to his left, assuming the bit of visible armband identifies a medic; perhaps due to a recent wound. A soldier in 1917 recovering from a wound or gas attack might be temporarily assigned to an available unit; not necessarily their unit of record. The soldier does resemble the archived photo on Wikipedia using bare eyeball comparison.

One may also wish to identify the figure third from the left, bottom row, displaying a handgun. He might be the unit commander. The two figures top left look interesting; possibly alpine riflemen attached to a machine gun unit? Perhaps they appear different due to their uniforms and elevation in the window.

Gosh, I failed to notice that. The attitude does seem supportive and one could think the armband is being shown deliberately and making the point of a wounded comrade to the honour of the individual and the unit. Put all this to a more specialised site and there is a chance of homing into a conclusion or probability one way or the other.

 

[Petronius]

As I briefly reviewed a biog of the man (and now need to complete it) in thenHistory Resources thread in this section of the forum, I felt obliged to spend several minutes research on this question!
At first sight it does not look very like - but we are mostly familiar with photos of a later time.
It seemed more plausible after I saw this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Benito_Mussolini_1917.jpg and several photos if you rummage into this https://pin.it/2G7UqM4
Anything at all by which you might date the photo might help.
The biog mentioned - but there are many others- gives him wounded (by an accident) on 27 Feb 1917, after which he was never again in the front line. But it was not clear when he was discharged from the Army, so he might just have been attached to a unit in a behind-the-lines role after recovery, on the other hand on 1Aug 1917 he left hospital on crutches.The war still had more than a year to run, but in 1918 he was publishing political articles. I cannot make out any rank badges on him. In Aug 1916 he was prompted caporale maggiore (and after wounding, sergeant). I am guessing that a corporal's stripes are on lower sleeve like the man in front row left. but you cannot see this area on the candidate.
Then the biog gives him as being in a Bersagliere (light infantry marksmen) regiment, while this is a machine gun regiment. Then again there was constant reorganisation and improvisation during the war.

You are more likely to encounter relevant knowledge on Quora, where there is an incredible amount of military-historical expertise.

Thank you for the suggestion and the information! Quora is worth a shot. I was doubtful myself but started to slightly entertain that was him in the photos when i saw some younger images. The jaw line seems like it could be right although the image is quite dark and shady.

 

[Petronius]

Wow, thank you to everyone for really dissecting this. I'll try to do some research if facial recognition could be used on this image. I would love to know more about the unit. I already learned so much from my German/Canadian relatives who passed away but never got to really hear any stories from my Italian side.

The armband is interesting, I wonder if I can find a good example online to compare it to, even though image quality is an issue.

I also wondered about the standing figure with the pistol as that seemed to show a lot of bravado when his comrades are posing more conservatively. When my classes are done I was also hoping to look into researching Italian historical veterans directly, and thus maybe figure out a lot more about the photo.

Thanks again,

 

[Petronius]

My dad suggested to me that because their collars are black and the presence of daggers it might be an Arditi unit?
You can see a dagger in the hand of the man with the arm band. I realized my phone can take much higher quality images than my scanner so I uploaded the shots here. I'm sorry I did not think to do this earlier.

After quick research I don't see the steel helmets that are sometimes associated with such troops though.