Just to ruffle a few feathers....

[Anon5000]

So why do we have education again?

I mean that literally, why are we all spending 50 thousand of our currency (depending on government's ability to stop printing money and control itself) per annum just to go to university, when all of the information that is taught in this university is availible in textbooks that have existed for at least the good part of a century.

This isn't Ancient Greece, and this is not the Odeon, we don't need to gather up as you tell me "A Tale of Woe!", I can look up precisely what Einstein wrote on Relativity FOR FREE. Isn't this all extremely stupid and a huge, colossal waste of manpower?

 

[ZapperZ]

This illustrates why you do not understand the difference between learning physics and being a physicist. One does not automatically imply the other.

BTW, would you let someone perform surgery on you who has only learned about doing surgery from just reading books?

Zz.

 

[Anon5000]

This illustrates why you do not understand the difference between learning physics and being a physicist. One does not automatically imply the other.

Zz.

What?

This wasn't even about Physics, this was about everything. Why do we pay millions of currency units and incur massive debts in degrees that most of us do not use just to hire somebody to rehash something that they've read somewhere else, outloud, to a classroom.

I simply do not understand it, this seems like an enormous waste of money (from the customer's side, and manpower from the producer side).

 

[ZapperZ]

Read the rest of my post that I edited.

A college education is more than what what's been written down. An engineering currriculum involves more than just reading up stuff in textbooks.

Zz.

 

[Anon5000]

Read the rest of my post that I edited.

A college education is more than what what's been written down. An engineering currriculum involves more than just reading up stuff in textbooks.

Zz.

I just don't see how that would be the case, I'm sorry, that idea rubs me the wrong way, if your learning materials are missing something, there is zero reason why you can't put it into said learning materials. The only thing missing for the surgeon is the physical dexterity and muscle memory he would get from practice, that aside, if he follows the step by step procedure, there should be no difference in principle.

And even if I agreed with what you said, you can still cut out so much of the college's revenue that is being spent on bogus things. So many cirriculums can be just a set of YouTube videos narrated by the greatest surgeon in history (or whatever, Neil DeGrasse Tyson if you like his creepy gesticulation and "air massage") and exams, msot of which would be multiple choice questions randomized and with random formula-based numbers.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

A bachelor's degree shows that you can work without supervision. You get and keep a job by demonstrating that you know what's needed to do the job. Just googling information doesn't do that. The University of Youtube doesn't issue diplomas. (Although people would be stupid enough to pay for them if they did.)

I went to various schools in the Navy, each of which made me better at my job. Then, after I retired, I spent 14 years attending Purdue. Got two bachelors and a masters there. It was fun and, ahem, educational.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I just don't see how that would be the case, I'm sorry, that idea rubs me the wrong way, if your learning materials are missing something, there is zero reason why you can't put it into said learning materials. The only thing missing for the surgeon is the physical dexterity and muscle memory he would get from practice, that aside, if he follows the step by step procedure, there should be no difference in principle.

And even if I agreed with what you said, you can still cut out so much of the college's revenue that is being spent on bogus things. So many cirriculums can be just a set of YouTube videos narrated by the greatest surgeon in history (or whatever, Neil DeGrasse Tyson if you like his creepy gesticulation and "air massage") and exams, msot of which would be multiple choice questions randomized and with random formula-based numbers.

Sounds like college is too much work for you.

 

[Anon5000]

Sounds like college is too much work for you.

Which part?

"A bachelor's degree shows that you can work without supervision." Shows? To whom does it show what? I'm not talking about the social value of said degree, that can be worked out later (hell, take an unpaid or low paid job to prove yourself and your knowledge).

"You get and keep a job by demonstrating that you know what's needed to do the job. Just googling information doesn't do that." <facepalm> I don't even...

Yes, of COURSE that's precisely what it does. It is information. I'm not going to speak on the quality of the average source on the internet, but if my job requires me to know Einstein's Relativity, and if the required pool of knowledge is mostly comprised of similar pieces of knowledge, I gain nothing from college that I wouldn't get from google.

"The University of Youtube doesn't issue diplomas. (Although people would be stupid enough to pay for them if they did.)" Oh, you're one of those "I am special because I have a university education and blew 200k on something I could've learned from 2 or 3 discounted textbooks, and everybody else just listens to Britney Spears [when in actual fact the only people who listen to Britney Spears and Pop Music are 12 year old girls, and using their like to make yourself look better is too low a standard]". Struck too close to home, did I?

"I went to various schools in the Navy, each of which made me better at my job. Then, after I retired, I spent 14 years attending Purdue. Got two bachelors and a masters there. It was fun and, ahem, educational."

1, nobody cares dog, 2, I say what I said again, this is not Ancient Greece, we don't need to gather in a blithering Odeon to hear you tell us a "Tale of Woe". We have books. We've HAD books for an extremely long time. Now we have the internet. Why do we still rely on getting people to physically go somewhere and listen to lectures in a university?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I hear the resource reclamation industry is booming these days.

 

[Anon5000]

I hear the resource reclamation industry is booming these days.

I hear guys who get salty because I downplay something they've (mis)spent 14 years doing. To each their own.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If you don't want to be educated, then don't. (But don't complain that you don't like the consequences)

 

[davenn]

"A bachelor's degree shows that you can work without supervision." Shows? To whom does it show what?

it shows the person who wants to employ your services that you have substantial skills in the field of interestIt seems you didn't bother to read the rest of Zz's post

BTW, would you let someone perform surgery on you who has only learned about doing surgery from just reading books?

would you ?? ... I wouldn't !

you seem to have a total lack of understanding of the process and its purpose

 

[Anon5000]

If you don't want to be educated, then don't. (But don't complain that you don't like the consequences)

I'll love the consequences because the only difference, in principle, will be the extra 200k in my pocket. I don't get why you are telling me like college is the way to go when it is I who is asking you why would you want to go there to waste money?

 

[davenn]

Why do we still rely on getting people to physically go somewhere and listen to lectures in a university?

you have already been given the answer to that TWICE

 

[Anon5000]

it shows the person who wants to employ your services that you have substantial skills in the field of interestIt seems you didn't bother to read the rest of Zz's post
would you ?? ... I wouldn't !

you seem to have a total lack of understanding of the process and its purpose

Yeah, you all keep telling me "you have a total lack of understanding bla bla" but none of you can article what it is that I lack, can you?

I don't think I lack anything, but its you who is not getting what I'm saying - why do we have a huge infrastructure based on education, when information can be procured and dissemenated much easier and better centrally via books (originally) and now via places like YouTube??

 

[Vanadium 50]

but none of you can article what it is that I lack

Right. We can't article it. At least not any better than you just did yourself.

 

[ZapperZ]

I just don't see how that would be the case, I'm sorry, that idea rubs me the wrong way, if your learning materials are missing something, there is zero reason why you can't put it into said learning materials. The only thing missing for the surgeon is the physical dexterity and muscle memory he would get from practice, that aside, if he follows the step by step procedure, there should be no difference in principle.

And even if I agreed with what you said, you can still cut out so much of the college's revenue that is being spent on bogus things. So many cirriculums can be just a set of YouTube videos narrated by the greatest surgeon in history (or whatever, Neil DeGrasse Tyson if you like his creepy gesticulation and "air massage") and exams, msot of which would be multiple choice questions randomized and with random formula-based numbers.

But now you're changing the subject. Stick to one point at a time!

I wrote my essay "So You Want To Be A Physicist" as an article to inform students on ALL the stuff that is involved in being a physicist that one CANNOT get out of the pages of a textbook. This is what I meant by the difference between learning physics and being a physicist. So if one wants to be a physicist, JUST learning and reading about stuff you can find is NOT sufficient!

And this is also rather timely. I've just assigned a reading assignment to my students on a topic that we may not have enough time to cover. I thought that it was a rather simple topic and the material in the text plus two other external references should provide sufficient information for them to understand the material. And you know what, HALF of the class either didn't fully understand it, or understood it wrong! And they spent hours trying to figure it out. It took me 1/2 hour to cover the material and explain it to them and only THEN did they understood it. So no, just because something is written down and accessible, doesn't mean that it can be understood easily. You severely overestimated not only the ability of someone to understand what he/she reads, but also the back-and-forth interaction that is an essential aspect of understanding a complex idea.

But there is another issue here that needs to be addressed. You have made this assertion that education out of college is not necessary. Is there any proof or evidence to back it up beyond simply what you speculated? You've made arguments that have no supporting arguments. In other words, if someone wants to be a surgeon, for example, or a physicist (after all, this IS a physics forum), where is the evidence that one can achieve such a thing without a formal education? People seem too easy to throw off unverified ideas as if they are facts.

Zz.

 

[Anon5000]

you have already been given the answer to that TWICE

No I haven't. You can list the two things you did think was the answer below though.

 

[Anon5000]

Right. We can't article it. At least not any better than you just did yourself.

Sure you can, mine was a technical typo, the de facto of the statement still stands. None of you are able to describe what it is that I'm missing, I just hear a lot of wild accusations and "guffawing".

 

[ZapperZ]

Sure you can, mine was a technical typo, the de facto of the statement still stands. None of you are able to describe what it is that I'm missing, I just hear a lot of wild accusations and "guffawing".

But wild accusations and "guffawing" were also what you've been doing on this thread, haven't you?

Zz.

 

[russ_watters]

I'll love the consequences because the only difference, in principle, will be the extra 200k in my pocket.

1. "In principle" it would seem like you should be able to teach yourself. In reality, people rarely ever succeed.
2. Even if you succeed at it, you will have no way to prove it, and to get a job you need to be able to prove it.

I don't get why you are telling me like college is the way to go when it is I who is asking you why would you want to go there to waste money?

Why are we giving you answers you don't want instead of confirming what you think you know? Because what you think you know is wrong.

I don't think I lack anything, but its you who is not getting what I'm saying - why do we have a huge infrastructure based on education, when information can be procured and dissemenated much easier and better centrally via books (originally) and now via places like YouTube??

Well, if nothing else, you lack an understanding of how to form a proper declarative statement!

Moreover, your repeated insistence that you haven't been given the answers, when you have been, indicates you have little hope of succeeding in learning on your own.

 

[Anon5000]

But now you're changing the subject. Stick to one point at a time!

No I'm good! Since we're YELLING! WOOOOO!

"I wrote my essay "So You Want To Be A Physicist" as an article to inform students on ALL the stuff that is involved in being a physicist that one CANNOT get out of the pages of a textbook. This is what I meant by the difference between learning physics and being a physicist. So if one wants to be a physicist, JUST learning and reading about stuff you can find is NOT sufficient!"

By how much. And which stuff.

"And this is also rather timely. I've just assigned a reading assignment to my students on a topic that we may not have enough time to cover. I thought that it was a rather simple topic and the material in the text plus two other external references should provide sufficient information for them to understand the material. And you know what, HALF of the class either didn't fully understand it, or understood it wrong! And they spent hours trying to figure it out. It took me 1/2 hour to cover the material and explain it to them and only THEN did they understood it. So no, just because something is written down and accessible, doesn't mean that it can be understood easily."

Yeah, totally. Have more than one source. Have 2-3 best practicioners in the field making parallel YouTube videos. Competition for the supply, the customer/viewer wins, no?"You severely underestimated not only the ability of someone to understand what he/she reads, but also the back-and-forth interaction that is an essential aspect of understanding a complex idea."

That sounds like bad teaching materials. I understand if this is a reality, but you shouldn't have to go back and forth clearing out all of the unclear areas when educating somebody. You should explain all of it correctly from the get go. Or the student should stop being lazy and make a genuine attempt at understanding. (Too much "customer is always right" is also sometimes bad, most of the students I've known did not want to be there and if they misunderstood something they made absolutely zero effort in the first place)

"But there is another issue here that needs to be addressed. You have made this assertion that education out of college is not necessary. Is there any proof or evidence to back it up beyond simply what you speculated? You've made arguments that have no supporting arguments. In other words, if someone wants to be a surgeon, for example, or a physicist (after all, this IS a physics forum), where is the evidence that one can achieve such a thing without a formal education? People seem too easy to throw off unverified ideas as if they are facts."

After all, this is a science forum, unless I've misunderstood the site's skeleton, and this thread is filed under "general". So chill it with your assumptions buddy.

Second, what reason do you have to suspect that people are UNable to achieve this without the benefit of having somebody basically hold their hand through the process?

If you needed evidence before you attempted each theory, we'd still be throwing rocks at each other's heads. I think I am making the right argument, don't you?

 

[davenn]

I think I am making the right argument, don't you?

and I think I speak for everyone else here when I say ... NO

 

[Anon5000]

"1. "In principle" it would seem like you should be able to teach yourself. In reality, people rarely ever succeed. "

I'm sure you're not just saying that because it makes you feel better to believe that in your sheltered little world.

"2. Even if you succeed at it, you will have no way to prove it, and to get a job you need to be able to prove it."

Yeah, no way to prove it.

Other than, I don't know, doing the job? Getting a temp job? Internship? Exactly like in the IT industry which requires 0 academic qualifications?? GASP. WHAT CAVALIER ATTITUDES!

Also, I didn't say I was against exams, just have the exams. Watch some YouTube, do the exams.

"Why are we giving you answers you don't want instead of confirming what you think you know? Because what you think you know is wrong."

I think you should seriously entertain the direct opposite conclusion. (Psst: because all the evidence's pointing to it!)

Well, if nothing else, you lack an understanding of how to form a proper declarative statement! [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't care about any of that nonsense. We can iron out the pleasantries after we're done building the paradise, so far, we can use some muscle on working out the bigger issues.

 

[Anon5000]

and I think I speak for everyone else here when I say ... NO

I think that's called intentionally taking the quote out of its context and clause :)

 

[fresh_42]

I was going to ban the OP from the thread as he obviously is trolling and insists on his positions without interest on the answer to the question or to develop the pros and cons. In addition the way he presents his position is a bit too aggressive to comply with our rules.
However, the question itself should be of interest on itself:
"Is college education necessary in comparison to learn from textbooks?"
On the other hand, without him defending this position, the thread loses its meaning, as he's apparently the only one.

For this reason I closed this thread.