Kenneth miller thinks god exists in quantum mechanics

[Ryan_m_b]

Who said that it had to? That's the notion. draw what conclusions you may from it.

and...read the book!

This is just going round in circles. vjk2 you are just ignoring peoples points and making erroneous arguments whilst not supplying evidence for your claim that an intelligent entity did it.

 

[JaredJames]

Who said that it had to? That's the notion. draw what conclusions you may from it.

So why post it?

It didn't have anything to do with my posts, it didn't support you, what exactly was it's purpose?

 

[Dotini]

Don't most of today's most-published, trendsetting super-thinkers like Hawking, Davies, Kaku et al accept the multiverse theory precisely because of apparent fine-tuning?

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[vjk2]

The wikipedia entry did a better job of explaining a concept I was trying to explain a few pages back. and someone else linked it, not me.

if there is only one universe (there might be multiple universes, but we have no evidence of these alternate universes in which gravitational constants are different), then the fact that it has been "fine-tuned" for the periodic table of elements and from there, life, is evidence of a God.

That is Ken Miller's argument.

You guys are saying that it is reductionist, like say, how a lucky lottery ticket winner might attribute some superstition to his win when it was mere probability. That is why creationists are wrong. But, for the universe to exist as it is there is a one in infinity chance, and there is only one shot at it. Finely tuned.

That's the argument.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The wikipedia entry did a better job of explaining a concept I was trying to explain a few pages back. and someone else linked it, not me.

if there is only one universe (there might be multiple universes, but we have no evidence of these alternate universes in which gravitational constants are different), then the fact that it has been "fine-tuned" for the periodic table of elements and from there, life, is evidence of a God.

That is Ken Miller's argument.

You guys are saying that it is reductionist, like say, how a lucky lottery ticket winner might attribute some superstition to his win when it was mere probability. That is why creationists are wrong. But, for the universe to exist as it is there is a one in infinity chance, and there is only one shot at it. Finely tuned.

That's the argument.

That may be the argument but it is unsubstantiated.

Claiming something is evidence does not make it so. You have to have demonstrable data, you can't just say "X is evidence of Y", you actually have to support that.

 

[JaredJames]

if there is only one universe (there might be multiple universes, but we have no evidence of these alternate universes in which gravitational constants are different), then the fact that it has been "fine-tuned" for the periodic table of elements and from there, life, is evidence of a God.

No it is not. That is a key point you are missing.

So far you are inferring this without supporting evidence, despite requests. This thread is going round and round.

 

[vjk2]

No it is not. That is a key point you are missing.

So far you are inferring this without supporting evidence, despite requests. This thread is going round and round.

well.

the point hinges on whether or not there are multiple universes or not.

If there are multiple universes, then it all procedes much as natural selection.

If there is only one universe, then there is a one in infinity chance that the various physical constants are put into just hte right balance that hydrogen and oxygen can form, that stars can ignite and planets coalesce.

if there is only one universe and there is a one in infinity chance for all of this happening, then that would be evidence of some sort of deity.

there is no conclusive evidence that this is the only universe that has ever been...however there is mroe evidence of this one universe's existence than there is of infinity parallel univereses with different physical constants. Our current reality could have been one of infinity prior universes, or it might be the only one. there is no conclusive proof either way, true.

But, if it is the only universe in existence, the one in infinity chance is pretty convincing. You guys are basically saying that...it's so obvious that fine-tuning didn't happen b/c there were multiple preceding universes. If you don't want god to exist, then you're pretty much forced to argue for multiple preceding universes. So where's the proof for those universes?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

well.

the point hinges on whether or not there are multiple universes or not.

If there are multiple universes, then it all procedes much as natural selection.

If there is only one universe, then there is a one in infinity chance that the various physical constants are put into just hte right balance that hydrogen and oxygen can form, that stars can ignite and planets coalesce.

if there is only one universe and there is a one in infinity chance for all of this happening, then that would be evidence of some sort of deity.

there is no conclusive evidence that this is the only universe that has ever been...however there is mroe evidence of this one universe's existence than there is of infinity parallel univereses with different physical constants. Our current reality could have been one of infinity prior universes, or it might be the only one. there is no conclusive proof either way, true.

But, if it is the only universe in existence, the one in infinity chance is pretty convincing. You guys are basically saying that...it's so obvious that fine-tuning didn't happen b/c there were multiple preceding universes. If you don't want god to exist, then you're pretty much forced to argue for multiple preceding universes. So where's the proof for those universes?

You're presenting a string of logical fallacies.

Firstly; our understanding of the 'creation' of the universe is limited. There is no evidence for the claim 'there were infinite chances'

Secondly; even if there were an infinity of chances there is no requirement for an omnipotent intelligence to make one of those options happen

Thirdly; it is a false dichotomy to suggest that the only two options are god or multiple universes

Fourthly; multiple universes would not undergo natural selection, unless you are suggesting that within some meta-universe all universes compete for existence and the chance to procreate and that there is some criteria for selecting universes with this meta-universe. Pure conjuncture.

My second point is by far the worst logical fallacy that you (and/or miller) has made

 

[Dotini]

Do you really think a system is fine tuned for a component when that component makes up ~0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the mass?

well.
If you don't want god to exist, then you're pretty much forced to argue for multiple preceding universes. So where's the proof for those universes?

I don't want to be forced into a choice between God and multiverses!

Therefore, I accept as evidence the relative lack of biology in the universe to argue against fine tuning for biology. Biology may be merely an accident - an error.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[vjk2]

close, but not quite.

YOU should be arguing that there are multiple universes, because if there is only one universe than than by the finely-tuned argument that is evidence of a deity (one in infinity).

If there are multiple universes, then the constants that arrived at existence as we know it, those constants were arrived at by chance, constant trial and error.

those multiple universes would not be competing with each other...but it would be something like universe one would have the gravitational constant be 6.7 × 10^-11 and another would be 6.8x10^-11...and ours is the one with 6.67300 × 10^-11 and we popped up in this one.

but all theories of those other universes is all conjecture, while we do have ample evidence of this universe.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

close, but not quite.

YOU should be arguing that there are multiple universes, because if there is only one universe than than by the finely-tuned argument that is evidence of a deity (one in infinity).

If there are multiple universes, then the constants that arrived at existence as we know it, those constants were arrived at by chance, constant trial and error.

those multiple universes would not be competing with each other...but it would be something like universe one would have the gravitational constant be 6.7 × 10^-11 and another would be 6.8x10^-11...and ours is the one with 6.67300 × 10^-11 and we popped up in this one.

but all theories of those other universes is all conjecture, while we do have ample evidence of this universe.

Can you thoroughly explain why a deity is needed. The fine-tuning argument for god simply claims that there must have been a deity. Saying "by the fine-tuned argument that is evidence" doesn't give any support to your proposition

 

[vjk2]

one in infinity.

for instance...speech is a series of sounds. how do you differentiate between when someone is talking to you and just random noise? If you hear your name being called, there is a very very small chance that it could have been the result of everyday background noise, and there is a much much higher chance that it is someone addressing you.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

one in infinity.

for instance...speech is a series of sounds. how do you differentiate between when someone is talking to you and just random noise? If you hear your name being called, there is a very very small chance that it could have been the result of everyday background noise, and there is a much much higher chance that it is someone addressing you.

This doesn't lend credence to anything.
-You have no evidence that the probability of our universe being the way it is is 1/infinity
-You have no evidence that a deity is required to resolve 1/infinity probabilities

Regarding your 'analogy'

I differentiate between sounds that are not caused by speech and sounds which are caused by speech because I have experience of speech and therefore I recognize it. This has nothing to do with fine tuning

If a random collection of sounds made me hear something that was identical to someone calling my name I would think that someone had called my name. This also has nothing to do with fine tuning

 

[Dotini]

YOU should be arguing that there are multiple universes, because if there is only one universe than than by the finely-tuned argument that is evidence of a deity (one in infinity).

I don't accept this, either. I don't even accept the word "deity".

I will admit that there seems to be a self-organizing intelligence or order underlying our universe and its laws of physics. A natural process resulting in stars and galaxies - nothing really to do with deity.

And I prefer to argue against multiverses, too.

Very respectfully,
Steve

 

[vjk2]

I don't accept this, either. I don't even accept the word "deity".

I will admit that there seems to be a self-organizing intelligence or order underlying our universe and its laws of physics. A natural process resulting in stars and galaxies - nothing really to do with deity.

And I prefer to argue against multiverses, too.

Very respectfully,
Steve

probably shouldn't have used the word "deity" but the general gist is similar.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

probably shouldn't have used the word "deity" but the general gist is similar.

Whatever word you choose you are still implying an intelligence. Not only that but an intelligence that somehow exists outside (whatever that means) the universe and is capable of constructing universes any way it likes.

That is a good description of a deity. To repeat myself with a slight edit

This doesn't lend credence to anything.
-You have no evidence that the probability of our universe being the way it is is 1/infinity
-You have no evidence that an intelligence is required to resolve 1/infinity probabilities

 

[vjk2]

I explained it earlier. Pretend that the universe is a computer simulation. You can input anywhere from -1000000000000000000 to 1000000000000000 in 9 to 10 fields, among them being gravitational force, electron constant, as mentioned, etc. you input a series of numbers on your first try to the fifth decimal place.

Life arises. If you had put it as much as a fifth of a decimal otherwise, it would not have happened.

that's the argument.

gimme some evidence of multiple universes through which by trial and error we come to the one we have here.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I explained it earlier. Pretend that the universe is a computer simulation. You can input anywhere from -1000000000000000000 to 1000000000000000 in 9 to 10 fields, among them being gravitational force, electron constant, as mentioned, etc. you input a series of numbers on your first try to the fifth decimal place.

Life arises. If you had put it as much as a fifth of a decimal otherwise, it would not have happened.

that's the argument.

gimme some evidence of multiple universes through which by trial and error we come to the one we have here.

How exactly is that evidence for an intelligence? As we established some time ago in this thread we all accept that if conditions were different the universe would be different. You however say that an intelligence set up the conditions we have deliberately. It doesn't matter how little a change needs to occur or how many probabilities there are you have not provided evidence for

-Evidence that the probability of our universe being the way it is is 1/infinity
-Evidence that an intelligence is required to resolve 1/infinity probabilities

So please, before you reply address these two points.

As for many worlds I never bought that up. I have no explanation for the reasons that the conditions are the way they are. This is because it is an unknown to science at this time and I am far more comfortable saying "I do not know of an explanation that has enough evidence to be regarded true beyond reasonable doubt. You on the other hand are claiming there must be a God. I'll say it again, please address the two points above that I am posting yet again.

 

[vjk2]

It is true that all we know is carbon-based life which is based on electron behavior. I assume that a different electron constant woudl result in different behavior between molecules. Instead of 8 valence electrons being stable it might be 17 or whatever, and instead of carbon it would be some other proton-electron configuration that life coalesced around.

but as to how the big bang worked out, as I've said before, if constants were slightly different you might only have a big cloud of hydrogen and nothing else...or you might not have enough hydrogen to form water in which RNA strands first form. And we have ample proof of how life could have evolved on Earth given the basic building blocks of the periodic table. and if constants were different there might be a different periodic table, true, or it might have utterly and completely unraveled.

It's all speculative, but I feel like the mountains of observations we have here in this universe with these conditions tilt it in favor of "finely tuned".

in evolution we have evidence of what works -- and also what doesn't work. With the universe, we have evidence of what works -- but NO evidence of what does not work.

 

[SpectraCat]

I am astonished that no one has mentioned the weak and strong anthropic principles throughout all of this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

The strong anthropic principle says that the universe is as we observe because it *had* to be that way ... this is sort of a non-theistic version of the fine-tuning argument. There seems to always be the implication that the universe was created for the purpose of allowing sentient life to evolve, but the question of an intelligent and willful creator is often side-stepped. The SAP is *consistent* with the universe having been deliberately created for "us", but that is not required. One of the interesting variants is tied into the Conciousness Causes Collapse interpretation of quantum mechanics, and basically says that the existence of intelligent life *now* has interfered with the quantum state of the universe (in the Feynman sum-over-histories sense) all the way back to the Big Bang. That "interference" coalesced the universe into it's current form, where sentient life exists. Personally I think it is all just metaphysics .. but it is fun to think about.

The weak anthropic principle is more favored by scientists in general (I believe Hawking is an adherent) ... it says that we observe the universe as it is, because if it were significantly different, then we wouldn't be here to observe it. Thus our position as observers is necessarily privileged. The WAP is also consistent with deliberate creation, but also admits other possibilities, like the "trillions of possible universes, but we only happen to be in just this one" raised by JaredJames. I personally favor this interpretation, because it seems to take less for granted, and allow for more possibilities ... however it is all still just metaphysics until someone can figure out an experimentally falsifiable hypothesis that let's us distinguish the difference.

Anyway, there is an absolutely great sci-fi novel related to all of this by Neal Stephenson .. it is called Anathem. It would be cool if things turned out the way they are in the book ...

[EDIT: whoops .. kinda got lost writing that .. anyway .. my point was that vjk2 seems to be arguing the SAP, while ryan and JaredJames are arguing the WAP. I thought maybe introducing those terms might help the conversation break out of the loop that it currently seems to be stuck in.]

 

[JaredJames]

in evolution we have evidence of what works -- and also what doesn't work. With the universe, we have evidence of what works -- but NO evidence of what does not work.

Ignoring the rest of this non-sense.

Given the variety of life on Earth, it is a perfect place to look for things such as evolution. However, unless it is through a telescope we can't investigate universe based issues such as fine tuning so well. So to make out we have no evidence and ignoring the issue of our very limited observations is plain wrong. To then further this and make a comparison to evolution based evidence is ridiculous.

Important for you to learn, a lack of evidence does not support anything and neither does it disprove anything.

Just because we don't have any evidence for X, it does not support your idea of Y (god in this case) and it certainly doesn't disprove X. You're using a lack of evidence for one principle as your sole source of evidence for another (your god hypothesis). This is not how things work.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I am astonished that no one has mentioned the weak and strong anthropic principles throughout all of this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

The strong anthropic principle says that the universe is as we observe because it *had* to be that way ... this is sort of a non-theistic version of the fine-tuning argument. There seems to always be the implication that the universe was created for the purpose of allowing sentient life to evolve, but the question of an intelligent and willful creator is often side-stepped. The SAP is *consistent* with the universe having been deliberately created for "us", but that is not required. One of the interesting variants is tied into the Conciousness Causes Collapse interpretation of quantum mechanics, and basically says that the existence of intelligent life *now* has interfered with the quantum state of the universe (in the Feynman sum-over-histories sense) all the way back to the Big Bang. That "interference" coalesced the universe into it's current form, where sentient life exists. Personally I think it is all just metaphysics .. but it is fun to think about.

The weak anthropic principle is more favored by scientists in general (I believe Hawking is an adherent) ... it says that we observe the universe as it is, because if it were significantly different, then we wouldn't be here to observe it. Thus our position as observers is necessarily privileged. The WAP is also consistent with deliberate creation, but also admits other possibilities, like the "trillions of possible universes, but we only happen to be in just this one" raised by JaredJames. I personally favor this interpretation, because it seems to take less for granted, and allow for more possibilities ... however it is all still just metaphysics until someone can figure out an experimentally falsifiable hypothesis that let's us distinguish the difference.

Anyway, there is an absolutely great sci-fi novel related to all of this by Neal Stephenson .. it is called Anathem. It would be cool if things turned out the way they are in the book ...

[EDIT: whoops .. kinda got lost writing that .. anyway .. my point was that vjk2 seems to be arguing the SAP, while ryan and JaredJames are arguing the WAP. I thought maybe introducing those terms might help the conversation break out of the loop that it currently seems to be stuck in.]

I did think of linking some of this in but I was trying to be as simple as possible to break the repetitive nature of this thread. Obviously I didn't succeed!

 

[Ryan_m_b]

It is true that all we know is carbon-based life which is based on electron behavior. I assume that a different electron constant woudl result in different behavior between molecules. Instead of 8 valence electrons being stable it might be 17 or whatever, and instead of carbon it would be some other proton-electron configuration that life coalesced around.

but as to how the big bang worked out, as I've said before, if constants were slightly different you might only have a big cloud of hydrogen and nothing else...or you might not have enough hydrogen to form water in which RNA strands first form. And we have ample proof of how life could have evolved on Earth given the basic building blocks of the periodic table. and if constants were different there might be a different periodic table, true, or it might have utterly and completely unraveled.

It's all speculative, but I feel like the mountains of observations we have here in this universe with these conditions tilt it in favor of "finely tuned".

in evolution we have evidence of what works -- and also what doesn't work. With the universe, we have evidence of what works -- but NO evidence of what does not work.

I don't know if you're doing it deliberately or by accident but you keep saying the same thing in different words.

me - Wheres the evidence that the universe was tuned for the purpose of giving rise to what we see?

you - If X was slightly different we wouldn't be here

me - Yes but where's the evidence that the universe was tuned for the purpose of giving rise to what we see?

you - If Y was slightly different we wouldn't be here

So please address this point; there is no evidence that the universe was deliberately tuned. How does looking at the universe and realizing how different it would have been if conditions were different give us any knowledge of why the conditions are so?

 

[Darken-Sol]

one in infinity.

the odds don't matter, especially if you are arguing for a god. i had this same idea except i used any odds (n:1). n for all the times nothing occurred and 1 for our current path. i justified there being 1 chance with our current existence. i assumed until the first change there would be no time. with no time i assumed all outcomes happened simultaneously. the BB then happens and the standard model can fill in the rest. i was told it doesn't make sense because we can't assume there was nothing, your wrong because you assume a god. it is a sound enough explination for me, just not for science, as it is untestable.

 

[thorium1010]

but as to how the big bang worked out, as I've said before, if constants were slightly different you might only have a big cloud of hydrogen and nothing else...or you might not have enough hydrogen to form water in which RNA strands first form. And we have ample proof of how life could have evolved on Earth given the basic building blocks of the periodic table. and if constants were different there might be a different periodic table, true, or it might have utterly and completely unraveled.

I'll address this, like ryan and jared have previously asked where is the evidence for fine tuning. No science book would state all the constants , mass, radiation are fine tuned, only the popular books like the one you refer keeps putting this idea. They (constants) are just the way they are . It is neither made that way or put that way (you have not shown evidence for fine tuning).
If the constants etc etc in the universe were a little different, how do you know what would form or what would it be like or what would the universe be like ? where is the evidence

 

[vjk2]

if x or y was different we wouldn't be here :)

I'm pointing to probability. There are infinite other combinations of possible different physical constants. Some might work. You might see, instead of carbon-based life, aluminum-based life. Others would not. It's not absolute, but slightly different variables would result in a very thin cloud of matter too far apart for molecules to meet let alone form life, or missing basic building things like water, etc.

If there is only one shot at this, and this phrase is important, then the fact that the universe is "tuned" within this small range is extraordinary. 1 or maybe 2-3 in a very large number.

So the proof really is just a logical argument from probability.

So most people trying to argue against fine-tuning don't dwell on the 1 in infinity chance, instead they move on to the argument of a series of alternate universes with slightly different constants and we popped up on the one with this specific bunch, thus making 1 in infinity, um, infinity in infinity.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

if x or y was different we wouldn't be here :)

I'm pointing to probability. There are infinite other combinations of possible different physical constants. Some might work. You might see, instead of carbon-based life, aluminum-based life. Others would not. It's not absolute, but slightly different variables would result in a very thin cloud of matter too far apart for molecules to meet let alone form life, or missing basic building things like water, etc.

If there is only one shot at this, and this phrase is important, then the fact that the universe is "tuned" within this small range is extraordinary. 1 or maybe 2-3 in a very large number.

So the proof really is just a logical argument from probability.

So most people trying to argue against fine-tuning don't dwell on the 1 in infinity chance, instead they move on to the argument of a series of alternate universes with slightly different constants and we popped up on the one with this specific bunch, thus making 1 in infinity, um, infinity in infinity.

Not at all.

Firstly where is the evidence that there was a 1 in infinity chance? Citations from peer-reviewed literature please
Secondly where is the evidence that a God is needed to resolve that 1 in infinity chance? Citations from peer-reviewed literature please
Thirdly where is the evidence that the constants of this universe were deliberately set up? Citations from peer-reviewed literature please.

Your argument is nothing to do with logic let alone "logical argument from probability". Improbabilities, no matter how large (or indeed infinite) are not evidence of the supernatural.

Again you haven't provided any evidence for your claims

 

[FlexGunship]

If there is only one shot at this, and this phrase is important, then the fact that the universe is "tuned" within this small range is extraordinary. 1 or maybe 2-3 in a very large number.

This is an incredibly specious argument. If nothing else it's a bit like arguing how lucky we are that gasoline is combustible since we have so many cars that wouldn't work if it weren't combustible.

If the universe had slightly different qualities, then evolved life would have different qualities. If the universe had significantly different qualities (i.e. such that mass didn't exist), then the discussion is moot. But, and THIS is important, there's nothing to suggest that these values could be anything other than what they are.

• We are very lucky that the perimeter of a square is four times the length of a side, because if it weren't the perimeter would be larger than the square!
• We are so incredibly fortunate that the area of a square is EXACTLY the square of one side because if it weren't, there wouldn't be enough room for the square to fit inside of itself.
• What a great thing it is that the volume of a cube is the cube of one of it's edges. If it weren't, then there would be too small of a space to fit the cube in!

This is what it sounds like when you post statements like the ones above. No one "tuned" a cube to be the correct size. It's an axiomatic property. Until there is evidence of a multi-verse, there is no reason to believe the universe comes in many "flavors." And if there is ever evidence of a multi-verse, then you may apply the anthropic principle to our existence.

 

[thorium1010]

if x or y was different we wouldn't be here :)
If there is only one shot at this, and this phrase is important, then the fact that the universe is "tuned" within this small range is extraordinary. 1 or maybe 2-3 in a very large number.

how do you know there is only one shot for the universe ? Big bang was an only an event in space and time, from which the universe exists as we see it now. (its actually a model which explains all current observations) Where is the evidence that it was forced or put into subsequent events by something outside the universe ?

 

[vjk2]

how do you know there is only one shot for the universe ? Big bang was an only an event in space and time, from which the universe exists as we see it now. (its actually a model which explains all current observations) Where is the evidence that it was forced or put into subsequent events by something outside the universe ?

I don't know. I'm not making an argument that YOU should believe in god based on the reasons, I'm saying that this is a compelling reason to believe in God.

Of course it's not certain. But I do feel that it is compelling.