Kinetic & Potential Energy of 0° Ice/Water: Examined

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the kinetic and potential energy changes when energy is added to ice at 0 degrees Celsius, transitioning it to water at the same temperature. Participants explore the validity of applying the ideal gas kinetic energy formula to liquids and solids, and the implications for molecular behavior in different states of matter.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the application of the kinetic energy formula K = 3/2 k T to liquids and solids, suggesting it may not be valid for these states.
  • Another participant agrees that K = 3/2 k T is specific to ideal gases and indicates that the kinetic energy of molecules in a liquid cannot be assumed to be the same as in a solid at the same temperature.
  • A third participant elaborates that solid constituents can only vibrate around an average position, implying that their energy is generally lower than that of liquid constituents, which have more freedom of movement.
  • There is a suggestion that the latent heat of melting is relevant to understanding the energy differences between solid and liquid states.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the application of the kinetic energy formula to liquids and solids, and there are competing views regarding the kinetic energy of particles in different states at the same temperature.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of kinetic and potential energy in different states of matter, and the discussion does not clarify the mathematical steps involved in relating these energies across states.

titansarus
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Hi.
In all of my question, I mean degrees celsius when I say degree.
Think we have a 0 degree ice. we give some energy to it (by a heater) and all of it get into a 0 degree water.
How does the kinetic and potential energy of the molecules change?

In the book in which I saw this question, it said that potential energy increases and kinetic energy of molecules doesn't change because of K= 3/2 k T. My problem is that we use K = 3/2 k T in ideal gases. is it valid for liquids or solids? Is it right to say that the mean kinetic energy of a solid and a liquid (of the same material and the same mass) is constant in temperature Θ? It doesn't seem logical. If it is true, how the water is more fluid and free than a solid?

Whatever the answer is, is it same for liquid and gas?

Sorry for my English.
 
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Hello titan, :welcome:

titansarus said:
we use K = 3/2 k T in ideal gases
meaning gases of infinitely small hard spheres that stilll can collide (I realize this is contradictory). So not for liquids and not for solids.
 
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BvU said:
Hello titan, :welcome:

meaning gases of infinitely small hard spheres that stilll can collide (I realize this is contradictory). So not for liquids and not for solids.
So, This means that if we have a liquid and a solid of the same temperature, we can't say their molecules (or particles) have the same kinetic energy. and the liquid particles has more kinetic energy than the solid of the same temperature, Is this right?
 
Good question. The constituents (ions, atoms, molecules) of a solid can't wander about, but they can vibrate about an average position. The energies associated with those degrees of freedom are generally less than the energy these constituents have when in the liquid state -- hence the latent heat of melting.

Perhaps you notice I'm treading carefully here -- some expert input would be welcome
 
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