Lagrangian for electromagnetic field derivation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Lagrangian for the electromagnetic field, specifically focusing on the Lorentz force law and its representation. Participants explore both classical and quantum perspectives, examining the implications and methodologies involved in the derivation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests a clever manipulation of the Lorentz force law to express it in terms of the partial derivative with respect to velocity, indicating a potential pathway to the final equation.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about the rationale behind the steps taken in the derivation, implying that they may be based on guesswork rather than a clear logical progression.
  • A different participant notes that while the classical derivation is interesting, it should be categorized under classical physics, and contrasts it with a more illuminating quantum derivation attributed to Schwinger, which involves local SU(1) symmetry.
  • One participant appreciates the non-covariant derivation presented by the original poster, indicating it was previously unfamiliar to them.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the classification of the derivation (classical vs. quantum) and the clarity of the steps involved. There is no consensus on the rationale behind the derivation or its implications.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in the clarity of the derivation steps and the distinction between classical and quantum approaches, but these remain unresolved within the discussion.

TimeRip496
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" We can put the Lorentz force law into this form by being clever. First, we write
$$\frac{dA_j}{dt}=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{\partial{}}{\partial{v_j}}(v.A)),$$
since the partial derivative will pick out only the jth component of the dot product. Now, since the scalar potential is independent of the velocity, we can add on a term containing it inside the partial derivative:
$$\frac{dA_j}{dt}=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{\partial{}}{\partial{v_j}}(v.A-q∅)),$$ "

I don't understand the rationale behind these. It seems like the author is trying to get to the final equation so he guess the steps in order to get to the final equation.

Source: https://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/02/no/pdfs/lorentz.pdf
Page 2 below eqn(13)
 
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TimeRip496 said:
" We can put the Lorentz force law into this form by being clever. First, we write
$$\frac{dA_j}{dt}=\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{\partial{}}{\partial{v_j}}(v.A)),$$
..
Source: https://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/02/no/pdfs/lorentz.pdf
Page 2 below eqn(13)
The link does not work for me - waits until timeout.
 
The link worked for me.

However it is classical - not quantum so really should be in the classical physics section.

However the quantum derivation is very very beautiful and much more illuminating.

You will find it in page 129 of the following book:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3319192000/?tag=pfamazon01-20

The basis, as I think was first discovered by Schwinger, is local SU(1) symmetry.

The same kind of reasoning leads to the existence of the Higgs for example - and much more. It is well worth your study.

Thanks
Bill
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I hadn't seen this non-covariant derivation anywhere, so a big thank you to the OP for bringing it up.
 

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