Look at yourself after watching this

[JaredJames]

Nismar, I've watched it three times now and I don't see where you get half of that from.

He tells you what his DVD is about - how he got through, how he coped and how you can try to use that to help you. I didn't see where he's actively discussing anybody else's problems outside of quick mention (I watched some of the other related videos), especially "discussing eating disorders" etc in any detail.

He just sounds like someone trying to raise some peoples self esteem.

I'm honestly curious about where in his video you pulled all that stuff from? Perhaps you've bought one of his DVDs and have a deeper knowledge of what he's actually about? Because that video doesn't tell you much about what he speaks about outside of what I've put above.

 

[nismaratwork]

Nismar, I've watched it three times now and I don't see where you get half of that from.

He tells you what his DVD is about - how he got through, how he coped and how you can try to use that to help you. I didn't see where he's actively discussing anybody else's problems outside of quick mention (I watched some of the other related videos), especially "discussing eating disorders" etc in any detail.

He just sounds like someone trying to raise some peoples self esteem.

I'm honestly curious about where in his video you pulled all that stuff from? Perhaps you've bought one of his DVDs and have a deeper knowledge of what he's actually about? Because that video doesn't tell you much about what he speaks about outside of what I've put above.

All I've watched of his was the link in this thread. At one point during a melange of his he adresses "girls with eating disorders", telling them that they are, "beautiful". I believe he tells guys that they are, "the man". How sad then, when they return to real life where not only is that contrary to how they'll be treated, but in fact contrary to how they're viewed.

Self esteem comes from a knowledge of what you can do, can't do, and are willing to try anyway... it comes from experience. You can't get it from a speech... just a temporary boost.

Beyond that, I wasn't claiming that he's trying to cure anyone of anything... he's openly selling "good feelings". If he were saying the same things, but justifying it because that's, "god's plan for you", I don't think it would have made this forum... unless he still didn't have arms and legs.

Look, my point is abdundantly clear here, whether or not you agree with it. I don't know that me repeating that point is useful now; it is GD, not Philosophy. At some stage I'm no longer making a point, and simply defeating the point of the thread, which is not my intent. (should be clear from my first post).

 

[Evo]

I just watched it again to see if I missed where he tells girls to give up and accept their situation. Nope, not there.

He said "it's a lie to think you are not good enough, it's a lie to think you are not worthy". He also mentioned things like eating disorders, or being angry at life

He said "it's scary to know how many people actually feel like they're worth nothing". He talks about the "strength to conquer all that comes before me". It's about overcoming physical and emotional challenges, nowhere does he say to accept them.

Nismar, we usually think alike, I feel like we watched different videos. But that's what makes the world unique, different people get different messages.

 

[nismaratwork]

I just watched it again to see if I missed where he tells girls to give up and accept their situation. Nope, not there.

He said "it's a lie to think you are not good enough, it's a lie to think you are not worthy". He also mentioned things like eating disorders, or being angry at life

He said "it's scary to know how many people actually feel like they're worth nothing". He talks about the "strength to conquer all that comes before me". It's about overcoming physical and emotional challenges, nowhere does he say to accept them.

Nismar, we usually think alike, I feel like we watched different videos. But that's what makes the world unique, different people get different messages.

I didn't miss the message, I just looked at how as many people that I could imagine would take it. In my view there is an implicit element of acceptance in his condition, by necessity and quite healthy too I'd add.

Messages in what he said:
Everyone is special
Everyone is beautiful
Everyone has something unique that makes them worthwhile
Don't give into despair
Don't despair when there is truly nothing to despair over
Accept the hand you've been dealt, but don't assume that you know what that hand is
Stop doubting yourself as a result of how others perceive you
Don't be sure that you can't alter the perceptions of others by your attitude and life
It is possible to be mobile using the power of superball-eque testicles
You can make money as a "freak"
[he] has answers that are valid, not because of the thinking behind them, but the source
Take what you see as a disability and market it, emphasize it, overcome it if you can
Love yourself so that you can love each other
Look at [him], are you worse off?
All sadness is equal, all pain is equal, not in the experience, but in our ability to overcome it. (a very dangerous message)
Look at the people [He] moved, if you're not moved, what's wrong with you?
...If you still feel terrible, maybe something is really wrong with you?
...If you still can't change your life and circumstances (and some won't), you need to try harder. (practical, but not always realistic)


ABOVE ALL: "I can help you." Can he? That's just a smattering of the messages you could take away, or that are made explicit or implicitly. If he told you that accepting the love of god was the key to all of that... would you still feel positively about him? How much of this is the quality of the message, and not the circumstances of the messenger?

You can't be a Skeptic and turn that on or off... you either critically examine things as a habit and way of thinking, or you don't. It's easy to be skeptical when someone claims to have seen something or experiences something you don't believe in, or something incredible... it's harder to be skeptical of a seemingly good man without arms or legs. Both have value, and without both, it's just preference, not skepticism.

 

[Pythagorean]

I agree with nismarak that he's pretty much selling feel-goodness. There's nothing really informative about motivational speeches. I do believe he's genuine, I just haven't ever seen evidence of such speeches really changing a demographic. On a personal level, motivated people may motivate from his words, but I believe the rest of society, their family life, and their genetics are going to heavily dilute the influence of a short-term feel good moment.

 

[Containment]

I remember a motivational speaker they brought in for us at middle school and the whole time I was just thinking... "if this guy wasn't paid to be here would he have come?" I think he was from the dare program they had with cops to get kids off drugs. In all honesty the speech just made me more depressed because I learned from it that there are way more people then I realized with problems.

 

[nismaratwork]

I agree with nismarak that he's pretty much selling feel-goodness. There's nothing really informative about motivational speeches. I do believe he's genuine, I just haven't ever seen evidence of such speeches really changing a demographic. On a personal level, motivated people may motivate from his words, but I believe the rest of society, their family life, and their genetics are going to heavily dilute the influence of a short-term feel good moment.

re bold: That is the heart of my point, and for someone who is genuinely ill, or struggling with trauma, this is a terrible experience and can lead to suicide. It's not a fun thing, but it's there. The motivated people, as you say, are primed to be "changed" by the experience, and of course we only see people in the moment.

I'm reminded of the concept of catharsis... anything which induces it is bound to draw crowds, but the effect is short-lived... just a part of life we can find ourselves. My view is that people with real problems need real help, and people with insecurity are so bombarded by social cues that deny what this man says... Ouch.

There will doubtless be some who are genuinely moved and changed, but then, the same is true for almost anything and enough people. I say all of this in the context of this emerging cult of "positive attraction" and "feeling good/The Secret"... so I'm not pointing at this remarkable man and saying that he's a bad person.

When he talks about holding someone's hand however, that's powerful, but more realistic would be how he wipes his rear. What is unsaid, and glossed over is not minor... it is in fact at he heart of his challenges. I thing we all understand that hopping, or being carried, or a number other things are possible. Who... wipes... his... butt? What's eating like? Can he have sex, and if so, how? You see, to me, I'm impressed when someone shares the details of their challenge, because anything less is just an idealized representation of overcoming.

It's the things he lives with, but CANNOT overcome that are also important to emphasize, along with the message that it is OK. Most people are gong to have a mental or physical illness that persists before they die, and when you live it, it's better to have the real info, not just the smiles. You tell a kid they can be president, and they'll already have an opinion about it... blow smoke and they'll KNOW. It doesn't matter that you, or I, or Evo, or Astronuc are moved, because we're not the target audience.

Like Containment's experience with DARE, if you don't spell out EVERY detail, credibility is lost. In the case of this man, it probably takes time to realize that. I believe that genuine change and improvement in life, anxiety, and other sub-clinical issues involves developing coping mechanisms... and relentless positivity isn't coping... it's divorced from reality.

 

[Evo]

Again, other people like me were very moved in a completely positive way by him. It made me realize that I don't have it as bad as I could and it's had a very positive affect on me.

I expected to watch and rip it apart. For me to do a 180 and not only like it, but have been positively affected speaks volumes for the guy. Kudos to him, and lucky kids that got to see him.

I really don't see any of the negative things that have been brought up. He didn't say any of those things, I've written down most of what he said because I was looking for where he gave any of those impressions and they're just not there. What is it called, projecting your own anxieties and fears? I tend to do that a lot, so I guess I understand your fears nismar, but I don't see them in what he said.

 

[nismaratwork]

Again, other people like me were very moved in a completely positive way by him. It made me realize that I don't have it as bad as I could and it's had a very positive affect on me.

I expected to watch and rip it apart. For me to do a 180 and not only like it, but have been positively affected speaks volumes for the guy. Kudos to him, and lucky kids that got to see him.

I really don't see any of the negative things that have been brought up. He didn't say any of those things, I've written down most of what he said because I was looking for where he gave any of those impressions and they're just not there. What is it called, projecting your own anxieties and fears? I tend to do that a lot, so I guess I understand your fears nismar, but I don't see them in what he said.

That's possible, and always something to guard against. I should make it clear that my views are based, not in him saying something deceptive or terrible, but the nature of "the beast" as it where. A well meaning preacher, speaker, teacher, etc... can be hugely beneficial, but they can also tug on your heart-strings expertly (if unintentionally).

My question is: I don't feel that I have a bad life, but when I think of fears, amputation isn't high on the list. (congenital in his case) Maybe it just comes down to what we've seen... I got just how great my life was when I first went to Guatemala, and a woman with what I believe was tertiary syphilis was begging. Her right eye was nearly gone, her nose was destroyed, so her little girl would point 'mom' in the right direction to beg.

She was not the worst I've seen.

Life is great; we're here to talk about it online. Remember my third point in my first post? "it's unfortunate that people need [this]..." to remind them that their lot in life is far from grim. I've also known two people, a contemporary and one older fall to Schizophrenia... and I don't know that having no limbs is worse than losing your mind. I'm speaking only of my casual, social experiences, beyond that is much more... interesting.

Bottom line: this guy didn't inspire me, because I learned his lesson at a very young age, and over and over again as I live now. If you're on PF, you're lucky. If you're not on the streets in a country that wants you dead more than they want you alive... you're lucky. You're lucky that your relatives left Algeria, and I'm lucky to be here at all!

I don't have a kind, or a harsh view of the world... just very very dispassionate when I try. It makes it easier to analyze emotionally charged material.


edit: I want to be clear:

1.) I don't think that people moved by this are anything except lucky to have been so moved.
2.) I don't think this guy is less than genuine; if he wanted to I believe he could exploit his condition for more than some DVDs.

 

[Pythagorean]

speculation; either:

a) it's possible that whatever insight can be gained from his speech (the obvious one, of course) has already been gained by nismara and myself, and we maybe happen to be reminded of the fact more often that Evo in our daily lives, so we don't see it as significant.

b) Evo has been feeling particularly down lately and needed an emotional reminder of something she already intellectually knew.

I really think it's b); I don't think Evo's stupid. I think motivational speeches are highly subjective (and Evo would have eventually gotten over her grievances one way or another, but this happened to be the time and place).

I also don't doubt that nismara and I will need emotional reminders at some point in our future, but I find them in nature, not spoken word. I watch the grasshopper.

 

[nismaratwork]

speculation:

a) it's possible that whatever insight can be gained from his speech (the obvious one, of course) has already been gained by nismara and myself, and we maybe happen to be reminded of the fact more often that Evo in our daily lives, so we don't see it as significant.

b) Evo has been feeling particularly down lately and needed an emotional reminder of something she already intellectually knew.

I really think it's b); I don't think Evo's stupid. I think motivational speeches are highly subjective (and Evo would have eventually gotten over her grievances one way or another, but this happened to be the time and place).

I also don't doubt that nismara and I will need emotional reminders at some point in our future, but I find them in nature, not spoken word. I watch the grasshopper.

Sounds about right, although I can't speculate about Evo... she speaks well for herself! I agree that reminders are still needed... not in the least because the way the world is messy changes... and because it's our nature to try and forget.

As you say, if you're feeling emotionally vulnerable, I can see this being profound. Frankly, if just Evo found this helpful it's worth it, but it doesn't stop the locomotive of skepticism.

 

[Pythagorean]

I can't speculate about Evo... she speaks well for herself!

It's fun for me to make predictions about people, I'm not afraid of being wrong.

But I couldn't see any other option besides a) and b) logically, but my internet social skills are largely underdeveloped, making this a beneficial exercise.

 

[nismaratwork]

It's fun for me to make predictions about people, I'm not afraid of being wrong.

But I couldn't see any other option besides a) and b) logically, but my internet social skills are largely underdeveloped, making this a beneficial exercise.

I'll take that.

 

[Evo]

It's always good to be reminded that no matter how bad things are, there is likely someone that has it worse. Seeing them deal with something worse in a better way makes you realize you need to stop the pity party and get yourself going again.

I've seen people that have a terminally ill child and think how devastating it would be to have a dying child. When I see them on tv, I don't think, wow, how damaging is this positive outlook to people that are abused. I see someone without arms and legs and it makes me realize that no matter how ill I am, it could be worse.

I don't see how anything he said would be emotionally damaging to anyone. Since when is seeing someone make the best of a physical handicap bad?

To the people that couldn't see something positive in how he's handled his handicap, that's kind of sad, IMO. But people are different. C'est la vie.

 

[Pythagorean]

I don't see how anything he said would be emotionally damaging to anyone. Since when is seeing someone make the best of a physical handicap bad?

wait, what, who said these negative things? My stance was that they largely have a neutral effect in the long-term (and admitting to a positive effect in the short term).

 

[Pythagorean]

To the people that couldn't see something positive in how he's handled his handicap, that's kind of sad, IMO.

well perhaps there's another motivational video that can help you with that :P

 

[Evo]

wait, what, who said these negative things? My stance was that they largely have a neutral effect in the long-term (and admitting to a positive effect in the short term).

nismar did. I don't see where he's doing the damage that nismar claims.

I love nismar, we usually think alike on so many things, that's why I said I found it odd how similar people can come away with such different views of the same thing. That's not a bad thing, it just points out how different we all are.

 

[nismaratwork]

This is true... I do tend to have an odd view of things, but I think you may be over-emphasizing the harm. (edit: To be clear, I'm not saying you've identified any harm, just that I've made quite a few more points that just the potential risk) From my point of view, a placebo + adverse reaction = bad medicine. Motivational speaking has not been shown to have positive lasting effects, except in the wallet of the speaker.

For me, it's the extreme of giving the benefit of the doubt that this man isn't simply trying to justify his own existence to himself, make money, and survive in a world that would tend to largely dismiss him.

What can I say?... I see a cube, and I want to see all of the sides, then the inside, then I'll render a conditional verdict. The skeptical view simply doesn't mesh well with any brand of, 'smile, see how bad it can be?' People who need help, don't need a speach, and people who can just enjoy a speach without needing more didn't need the speach.

Then again, I could be right, and this kind of nearly mindless positivtiy in the face of adversity is really not a great thing. If your major adversity is simply a lack of perspective, I think there are easier ways to instill that sense.

In the end, this is a guy selling a product, and that means we can't just treat him as though this wasn't his day job. No arms and legs doesn't make you good or honest, and beyond my impression that he seems genuine... who knows?

I'll ask again, is it so different from a preacher comparing your situation to, "the suffering of jesus?" Just an example that springs to mind... because we should be concerned only with the quality of the message, not the nature of the messenger.

 

[Dembadon]

[...]

I'll ask again, is it so different from a preacher comparing your situation to, "the suffering of jesus?" Just an example that springs to mind... because we should be concerned only with the quality of the message, not the nature of the messenger.

Actually, I was more moved by his general attitude than by what came out of his mouth. Just the fact that he was doing something with his life instead of making excuses to be depressed was what helped kick me in the pants. It is uncharacteristic of me to not analyze what literally comes out of peoples' mouths, but given my current circumstances, I was probably "primed" as you'd say.

You're a persuasive, insightful fellow, nismar, and I always enjoy reading your posts. I will say, though, that if his message inspires a few of the participants to seek professional help for depression, then I don't see the harm. I don't remember him actually giving false information, as would be the case with the hypothetical in your quote.

 

[nismaratwork]

Actually, I was more moved by his general attitude than by what came out of his mouth. Just the fact that he was doing something with his life instead of making excuses to be depressed was what helped kick me in the pants. It is uncharacteristic of me to not analyze what literally comes out of peoples' mouths, but given my current circumstances, I was probably "primed" as you'd say.

You're a persuasive, insightful fellow, nismar, and I always enjoy reading your posts. I will say, though, that if his message inspires a few of the participants to seek professional help for depression, then I don't see the harm. I don't remember him actually giving false information, as would be the case with the hypothetical in your quote.

Hmmm... It's definitely his attitude that makes me feel he's genuine, but then, the best confidence men are just that way. I'm always primed to analyze... always have been... although that doesn't speak to any particular quality in my analysis.

Thanks for your kind words, and I appreiate them. As for the hypolthetical... I believe it's false information, but there are people who think that's absolutely true; that a man died in agony, voluntarily, for them. Catholic guilt... it never fails, but still, I imagine the point is much the same: perspective. OK, it's also manipulation, but in my hypothetical we get to pretend it's JUST for the sake of perspective.

My point is that one person's inspiration can be another's sense of failure, and not becaue anything was said differently, but because of their circumstances/biology. Remember, in the context of a kid listening to this, it's clear that you SHOULD gain perspective, but is that necessarily going to make you feel better, or help you cope?

I'd argue that it CAN, but not through any intrinsic value in his presentation. I just don't buy into a message because the messanger is a saint, or a devil, a martyr or a murderer. If you took the messanger out of this message, it would be pablum; that is my point. Once you realize that, and once you remember that impact of the messanger fades rapidly compared to the message... that's my problem.

If he really wants to help people, he can be an inspiration and motivation without being an inspirational and motivational speaker.

 

[chiro]

Keeping on the vibe of the subject there's a guy called Sean Stephenson who is wheelchair bound who does a similar kind of thing like this guy is doing.

David DeAngelo (for those of you who don't know he's one of those "Pickup-Artist Coaches") did a segment with him and said the same kind of things as this guy but in the context of relationships with women.

Personally in terms of "motivational" speeches, I think most people know what they have to do to accomplish whatever they want to accomplish but they just make excuses and fool themselves to believe that these excuses are justified.

When you see people like this guy, it does remind you that sometimes these excuses are pretty lame and that you're only fooling yourself to think that the barriers you put up are hard enough to stop you.

Also with regard to these other people "helping people", these people can't do that. The only way people can be helped is if they ultimately choose to help themselves. The precursor to that happening is often something dramatic: maybe you're a drug addict and your friend has died, maybe you're working in a dead end job and have had enough of it to want to pursue a degree, start a business, or have a career change.

It might even be that someone you know has cancer. These are often the things that get people to change whether its for the better or for the worse.

Also a lot of people are afraid to fail. We all look up to the people that win. What we don't often see is the process that went behind getting to that "win". People don't want to put themselves on the line personally, socially, financially, emotionally and so on.

 

[Evo]

I'll ask again, is it so different from a preacher comparing your situation to, "the suffering of jesus?" Just an example that springs to mind... because we should be concerned only with the quality of the message, not the nature of the messenger.

I didn't see any preaching, or chastising. I've been forced to attend all of the top motivational seminars, my company paid for all of them and we had to attend.

I hate these people, but he's not one of them. If I can't find fault with him, that speaks volumes. I am always ready and willing to rip apart anyone that has a touchy feely message. His position was, here are my challenges and this is how I've dealt with them. If it makes you rethink your own challenges, great, if you don't have challenges (as pythogorean suggested) then you're lucky.

 

[wrongusername]

b) Evo has been feeling particularly down lately and needed an emotional reminder of something she already intellectually knew.

Aww really? About what? :(

 

[Pythagorean]

I didn't see any preaching, or chastising. I've been forced to attend all of the top motivational seminars, my company paid for all of them and we had to attend.

I hate these people, but he's not one of them. If I can't find fault with him, that speaks volumes. I am always ready and willing to rip apart anyone that has a touchy feely message. His position was, here are my challenges and this is how I've dealt with them. If it makes you rethink your own challenges, great, if you don't have challenges (as pythogorean suggested) then you're lucky.

Sermons aren't always so Puritan. Ther was actually one particular night I was on a long drive flipping through stations and I heard this very soothing, intellectual structure of words describing social and personal issues and a very objective manner.

It took about fifteen minutes before I realized it was a sermon, but I lost some of my barriers to religious people that night. I also had a preacher for a teacher in a psychology class who was very respectful of neuroscience and evolution and knew from his psychology background that chastising was a shame association that can lead to psychological problems in youth.

I imagine he actually had informative sermons.

Anyway, I think both the motivational speaker and the preacher are remnants of our campfire days. Tell us a story, shaman! It doesn't devalue what their social contributions, but it's rather subjective as to what kind of people are willing to receive what message.

 

[nismaratwork]

I didn't see any preaching, or chastising. I've been forced to attend all of the top motivational seminars, my company paid for all of them and we had to attend.

Chastising?! No no no... that's not what I meant at all. I think I used the wrong word, "sermon"... I don't mean to bring the emotional baggage of practicing religion. Probably there was some error in using the "jesus died for you" example, but I didn't mean it in the context of, "FEEL BADLY THAT HE DIED"... more, "Look at this wonderful thing that was done for you." Note, I don't believe in any of it, nor am I Christian so... sorry!

One thing I'd note: Your company is not your friend, you aren't a kid, and you know going into it that it's not even for your best interest. This is arguably a very different situation, but none of that touches on the SPEAKER yet, just the setting. If you'd been forced by your company to attend THIS seminar (no arms no legs)... would you have been so moved?

I hate these people, but he's not one of them. If I can't find fault with him, that speaks volumes. I am always ready and willing to rip apart anyone that has a touchy feely message.

This is where you're a decent person, and I'm who I am: I'm always ready to rip apart any argument, person, or position, regardless of the source (myself included) or my own tastes and beliefs. Touchy feely certainly tends to annoy me, but it's much less insidious than intelligence and ideology in a mix.

His position was, here are my challenges and this is how I've dealt with them. If it makes you rethink your own challenges, great, if you don't have challenges (as pythogorean suggested) then you're lucky.

It's a challenge to be alive, and I don't mean for humans alone. Beyond that, his challenges are extremely unique in that they're highly visible and draw pity. By contrast, if you're saaaay, a poor mother in the Phillipines, nobody cares what you have to say... too many others with those challenges.

If there's a way to take his message without it relying on the messanger for its impact and quality, I'm interested. As it stands, I'd rather hear incredibly useful information from a boring and mediocre source, than a rousing presentation that is mostly feel-good. I don't like any message that requires a suspension of disbelief and critical thinking to appreciate it in the long run.

 

[nismaratwork]

Keeping on the vibe of the subject there's a guy called Sean Stephenson who is wheelchair bound who does a similar kind of thing like this guy is doing.

David DeAngelo (for those of you who don't know he's one of those "Pickup-Artist Coaches") did a segment with him and said the same kind of things as this guy but in the context of relationships with women.

Personally in terms of "motivational" speeches, I think most people know what they have to do to accomplish whatever they want to accomplish but they just make excuses and fool themselves to believe that these excuses are justified.

When you see people like this guy, it does remind you that sometimes these excuses are pretty lame and that you're only fooling yourself to think that the barriers you put up are hard enough to stop you.

On the other hand, do you think that anyone there believes he's going to win a foot-race? Not to be cruel, but if the message isn't plumb with the messanger, it's just "be happy, it could be worse, I live like this and I'm happy! You can be happy to if you just ignore what everyone else says, and believe me, because I live lke this, and I'm happy." (not a real quote)

Also with regard to these other people "helping people", these people can't do that. The only way people can be helped is if they ultimately choose to help themselves. The precursor to that happening is often something dramatic: maybe you're a drug addict and your friend has died, maybe you're working in a dead end job and have had enough of it to want to pursue a degree, start a business, or have a career change.

It might even be that someone you know has cancer. These are often the things that get people to change whether its for the better or for the worse.

...And sometimes you've already had those experiences before you get to the speach. Would a little girl with terminal cancer make a good motivational speaker, if she's genuinely positive? Live long enough, (and I'm hardly old) and you'll have friends come and go from cancer and more. It's less dramatic than you think, which is part of the problem.

Also a lot of people are afraid to fail. We all look up to the people that win. What we don't often see is the process that went behind getting to that "win". People don't want to put themselves on the line personally, socially, financially, emotionally and so on.

I can find no fault with this, and in fact I think that's a genuinely useful message. Evo, why didn't you point this out... I could be agreeing with YOU right now too! :crys:

 

[nismaratwork]

Aww really? About what? :(

If she wanted us to know, we'd know.