Looking for a Quote from The Old Testament

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dooga Blackrazor
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Quote
Click For Summary
The discussion revolves around finding a quote from the Old Testament that illustrates God's oppressive nature, particularly in the context of an essay comparing God to Napoleon from George Orwell's "Animal Farm." Participants reference various biblical passages, such as the destruction of Canaanite cities and the death of firstborns in Exodus, as examples of divine oppression. The conversation touches on themes of sexism in scripture, with specific verses cited that are perceived as oppressive to women, such as those instructing women to remain silent and submissive. Some participants argue that the portrayal of God in the Old Testament is harsh and punitive, contrasting it with the New Testament's depiction of a more benevolent God. The thread also includes debates about the interpretation of biblical texts, the historical context of these writings, and the implications of comparing a deity to a political figure like Napoleon. Overall, the discussion highlights the complexities of interpreting religious texts and the varying perspectives on their meanings.
  • #31
This is from Judges:

19:22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
19:28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
19:29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
19:30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.

Interpret this last part how you will. I suppose, strictly speaking, God isn't directly advocating this kind of behavior, but there should be little question that whoever was responsible for producing this literature did not have the highest opinion of or respect for women. If you think it was just some ancient Israelites, so be it. But if we're taking the bible to be the literal word of God (for the purposes of your essay, it's your decision), a red flag might be in order.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
scott_alexsk said:
What is your defination of honor by the way, as in "honor thy father and thy mother." Just curious.
-Scott
I don't know if you were asking me or not, but I define this a couple of ways. I see it as the way your behavior is perceived by others. For example, if you see a teenage deliquent, you think, "His parents must have been lousy." His behavior reflects on them.

Secondly I see it as more direct: minding them while you are in their care.

The first type of behavior is something we can all do, even if our parents are dead. Even if we never knew them, if you are a good person, their contribution of bringing you into the world is honored.
 
  • #33
What about the large amounts of Sexism that God induces?
 
  • #34
  • #35
...and spake to the master...
...that came into thine house...
...and said unto them...
I wonder. With all the Christians in America among other places, why is it that their book translation seems stuck in this kind of unreadable, archaic English?
 
  • #36
Orefa said:
I wonder. With all the Christians in America among other places, why is it that their book translation seems stuck in this kind of unreadable, archaic English?

<CYNCISM>So that people can misinterpret it liberally<CYNICISM>
There's some blather about various translations of the bible being the most this or the most that. Translations like the "Good News Bible" which are designed for accessibility are in more modern English. Of course, since these are translations, and hence imperfect, interpretation issues always color things.
 
  • #37
scott_alexsk said:
What is your defination of honor by the way, as in "honor thy father and thy mother." Just curious.
-Scott
I don't have a single definition of honor; it can mean different things depending on the context. Why does it matter? What if my definition of honor was rape?

Which verse are you talking about -- telling husbands to honor their wives? This was the only one I found:
1 Peter 3:7
King James Version (KJV)

View commentary related to this passage

7Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
A Public Domain Bible KJV at Zondervan Zondervan
New International Version (NIV)

Listen to this passage

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.


New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Listen to this passage
View commentary related to this passage

7(A)You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with (B)someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Cross references:

1. 1 Peter 3:7 : Eph 5:25; Col 3:19
2. 1 Peter 3:7 : 1 Thess 4:4



New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
NASB at Lockman The Lockman Foundation NASB at Zondervan Zondervan
New Living Translation (NLT)

View commentary related to this passage

Husbands
7In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat her with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. If you don't treat her as you should, your prayers will not be heard.




New Living Translation (NLT)

Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.
New Life Version (NLV)

7In the same way, husbands should understand and respect their wives, because women are weaker than men. Remember, both husband and wife are to share together the gift of life that lasts forever. If this is not done, you will find it hard to pray.
I'm not sure what exactly honor means here. Since it gives as a reason or motivation that women are weaker, perhaps it means to not abuse or take advantage of them or that they require extra patience because of their inferiority. Perhaps it means something similar to what PETA might mean if they issued a statement saying that we should honor animals.

I don't think its use here is the same as in the Commandments. I think I was taught that the honor you owe to your parents included obedience. (Consider that the punishment for being a disobedient son was stoning.) A husband disobeying his wife isn't even possible since a wife has no authority over her husband.
 
  • #38
On second thought, I take that back. I don't want to have anything to do with this thread.
 
Last edited:
  • #39
I can't believe I didn't see this before. Dooga, or whatever your name is, you cannot even compare the God of the old testiment to Stalin, which is represented by Napolean, in Animal Farm, in any way. The problem is Stalin was a sciopath looking out for his own interests, he did not even care who he killed or supressed. He had no loyalities and neither did Napolean in the book. You can say all you want about oppression, but fundamentally both are very different. The God of the old testiment at least has loyalities to those who make a covenant with him. Stalin did not care about anyone, and if you know anything about Stalin you will know what I mean. Stalin did not descriminate, he killed anyone just for the sake of instilling terror and solidifiying his power. I have no idea how you can compare the two and how I missed this before.
-Scott
 
  • #40
I got to say, this is one really awesome thread. Talk about controversial. Anyway, I don't understand how getting a quote for how God is oppressive turned into how women are oppressed (depite reading the posts). I'm going to agree with Scott and say you shouldn't compare God to Napolean, merely from personal beliefs. If you have to, well... I can see both sides of the argument. In one theory, you could say that God is Napolean, the dogs are an over aggressive church and the other animals are the common people. I personally disagree with this theory and it doesn't mention the farmers, but your teachers might be impressed and give you a good grade (even if you didn't have a quote, bit I'm sure you can find something).:-p
-Xenophon
(Can we close this thread? It's getting pretty pointless.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #41
Im not even going to jump into the women's arguement, unless asked.:wink:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
837
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
Replies
64
Views
9K