Male Bio Students Underestimate Female Peers

[WWGD]

While the situation has gotten a lot better, gender bias is absolutely real. While I have been lucky in that I have had only positive experiences with faculty, many of my female peers have not been so fortunate and have felt that they have been bullied and belittled by male faculty. I know of recent situations where faculty have openly displayed and vocalized biases towards female students. However, this situation was taken very seriously and faculty members of both genders were very angry that the student was treated this way.This brings me to another point. There are very few faculty members in many subfields of physics. Mine is probably one of the worst. However, there have been recent female hires who are absolutely top notch. A lot of men underestimate how important this is and how just one woman can change the environment and make female students more welcome.

<Snip>

I have had bad experiences in undergrad with a few undergrads and grad students as well as one postdoc. I can't tell you how many times I have felt like I have been interrogated while discussing homework. There was one guy who was especially rude to me and did this until I broke and said I didn't know anything when I was actually right (I usually make sure of this before I talk for this reason). I experienced something less subtle when I was in a freshman lab (where I was the only woman). We had to finish the lab report during the lab and the student did not know what he was doing. I said that I knew how to do the specific take and asked if he could let me do it. He responded by calling me a very rude name.
I was also around some grad students who were making sexual comments about another undergrad. It was absolutely juvenile and repulsive behavior. I have been the only woman in three classes during undergrad. I was one of two in one of my grad school classes. Sometimes the other did not show up so I was literally in a classroom surrounded by around 20 guys. I have been out to dinner or lunch with research groups where I was the only woman. I was the only woman and undergrad in one of these groups. Everyone was very nice to me, but try to put yourself in my shoes. It takes a little time getting used to these things.

I do believe that a lot of gender bias is unconscious and occurs because of ignorance and/or insensitivity. For example, when male students make comments that make female students uncomfortable, I don't think it means they are intentionally doing so or are bad people. I persobally think that if they were more educated on why those comments are inappropriate, they would feel bad and change their behavior.

This is part of the problem of studying bias, that it is based on self-reporting. I understand this is a difficult thing to measure otherwise, but still, it is a matter as it is, of personal perception. And you are reporting cases of idiots and jerks most of us , male or female run into at some point. To expect to feel comfortable is one thing, to be discriminated against is another.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Besides, the 5% that _may_ constitute the pay difference falls into the 5% margin of error. Hardly the clear cut case of discrimination that is often made.

I don't see anything about a margin or error. Anyway, yes, the country isn't a laboratory where everything can be isolated and controlled for. All of these studies are honest about the difficulty in accounting for everything, and some specifically mention the things you bring up. When combined with studies like the one in this thread and other similar ones showing conscious or unconscious bias--not to mention history and the personal experiences of plenty of women--it's certainly good evidence and not some kind of extreme left agenda that anyone is scared to question because of PC. If you want to make a thread about "idiots and jerks" on the left, you can do so, although it would seem to constitute the cherry-picking that you hate so much. It's very telling that you have the same hysterical reaction to any thread that's even remotely feminist.

 

[WWGD]

I don't see anything about a margin or error. Anyway, yes, the country isn't a laboratory where everything can be isolated and controlled for. All of these studies are honest about the difficulty in accounting for everything, and some specifically mention the things you bring up. When combined with studies like the one in this thread and other similar ones showing conscious or unconscious bias--not to mention history and the personal experiences of plenty of women--it's certainly good evidence and not some kind of extreme left agenda that anyone is scared to question because of PC. If you want to make a thread about "idiots and jerks" on the left, you can do so, although it would seem to constitute the cherry-picking that you hate so much. It's very telling that you have the same hysterical reaction to any thread that's even remotely feminist.

How is my reaction hysterical? I believe I responded to claims with specific counterclaims. I am , I believe , giving the viewpoint of the supposedly privileged males that is very rarely presented anywhere, at least nowhere I am aware of. And maybe you should look at the tone of your posts together with the fact that you also always chime in on these topics yourself. Pot... Kettle...black...I don't know about your experience, but I have taken classes on feminism and hung out with feminists and I am tired of being blamed for all the ills of humanity as a straight white male. And on't you dare disagree with anyone, or you will get the nastiest tongue-lashing while having them decry the abusive behavior of men. I want to provide a perspective I do not see presented.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Well, that right there. That was hysterical. You're often blamed for all the ills of humanity because you're a straight white male? And that's not even supposed to be comical hyperbole. You actually mean it. You should probably just stop or try to make a thread about what you want to discuss, because these threads you get involved in are never remotely close to what you try to make them about. Suppressed white men who can't get their ideas out because of PC pressure...oh, boy. And a "tongue-lashing"?! Uh oh. I recall that you mentioned Malala getting shot for going to school as an example of why "underappreciation" is a trivial concern. But a (predicted) tongue lashing, now that's just too much!

 

[WWGD]

Well, that right there. That was hysterical. You're often blamed for all the ills of humanity because you're a straight white male? And that's not even supposed to be comical hyperbole. You actually mean it. You should probably just stop or try to make a thread about what you want to discuss, because these threads you get involved in are never remotely close to what you try to make them about. Suppressed white men who can't get their ideas out because of PC pressure...oh, boy. And a "tongue-lashing"?! Uh oh. I recall that you mentioned Malala getting shot for going to school as an example of why "underappreciation" is a trivial concern. But a (predicted) tongue lashing, now that's just too much!

I guess you haven't taken classes on feminism and chosen to disagree. Have you tried o give your side of things when discussing with feminists? I was downright abused by the professor and by the women in the class I took on feminist studies.And of course I speak for effect. And I think it is your hysteria which is leading you to bring up the issue of underappreciation; what I am mentioning is that the male perspective is not often presented; I never spoke of underappreciation. The tongue lashing is what I get when speaking with feminists, maybe it is because NYC is the hotbed of radical feminism or maybe it is the radicalism of the left wing media (right wing has a different type and topic of radicalism). At least please get it right before disagreeing.

 

[Tobias Funke]

And I think it is your hysteria which is leading you to bring up the issue of underappreciation; what I am mentioning is that the male perspective is not often presented; I never spoke of underappreciation.

Well, in the technical sense you may not have spoken of it, but you did write it at least twice.

It may be a good idea to wait see if the same result holds in other schools. I am sorry, but the world is an imperfect place and one needs to be tough enough to get over relatively trivial things such as lack of support and appreciation. This seems too much even considering it is a 1st -world problem.

I think it was Russ Watters who put some perspective on it: (paraphrase) If Malala wants to go to school, she may get shot in the face. And you just feel unnapreciated?

At least please get it right before disagreeing.

Get what right? I don't know what you're talking about and I don't think you do either. This happened in the previous thread too. You denied saying things that you said on the previous page and then threatened to report me for saying the opposite of what I said. You simply can't approach the subject from a rational standpoint.

 

[WWGD]

Well, in the technical sense you may not have spoken of it, but you did write it at least twice.
Get what right? I don't know what you're talking about and I don't think you do either. This happened in the previous thread too. You denied saying things that you said on the previous page and then threatened to report me for saying the opposite of what I said. You simply can't approach the subject from a rational standpoint.

Of course, you are lacking any rationality yourself. Where did I EVER spoke of my feeling unappreciated? This is what I was referring to, and what you keep misrepresenting. Just go on cherry-picking and distorting. I am done exchanging with your made up arguments and straw men.

AND, BTW, I threatened to report you because you accused me of being racist.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Of course, you are lacking any rationality yourself. Where did I EVER spoke of my feeling unappreciated? This is what I was referring to, and what you keep misrepresenting. Just go on cherry-picking and distorting. I am done exchanging with your made up arguments and straw men.

I never claimed you felt unappreciated. You apparently don't understand what I actually wrote, but don't blame me for it.

AND, BTW, I threatened to report you because you accused me of being racist.

Uh, ok.

**I can't resist another footnote. This smear campaign is similar to and interects several others. I noticed that you ["you" refers to WWGD] mentioned past ideas about race, because obviously racism is wrong. Yet you liked a post that "joked" (we know it wasn't entirely a joke though) about a near future with white men being persecuted and, I guess, arrested. There was no mention of race at all before that. So what type of person says something like that? A non-racist? Not too likely. (note that I asked what type of person says something like that, not agrees with the overall post; I'm not calling you a racist)

Emphasis mine.

 

[radium]

If my experiences are anecdotal, then your experiences with feminism are too. Feminism is about trying to empower women, not bringing people down, and that goes for either gender. I have not observed men experiencing any of the things I have described. A lot of them seem suprised that things like this happen since they are unaffected.

There have been so many reliable articles written about gender bias and they all suggest the same thing: the situation is improving but there are still many hardships that women (and of course minorities) face which affect their work. We are not asking to be coddled, we are asking to be respected and not to be treated differently. That is why I have had good experience with faculty, they have never treated me any differently because I was a woman and for this reason I was able to blend in with everyone else. I suspect this is because most people mature as they grow older and learn to listen to other people and not tell asinine jokes about someone's body for instance.

 

[WWGD]

If my experiences are anecdotal, then your experiences with feminism are too. Feminism is about trying to empower women, not bringing people down, and that goes for either gender. I have not observed men experiencing any of the things I have described. A lot of them seem suprised that things like this happen since they are unaffected.

There have been so many reliable articles written about gender bias and they all suggest the same thing: the situation is improving but there are still many hardships that women (and of course minorities) face which affect their work. We are not asking to be coddled, we are asking to be respected and not to be treated differently. That is why I have had good experience with faculty, they have never treated me any differently because I was a woman and for this reason I was able to blend in with everyone else. I suspect this is because most people mature as they grow older and learn to listen to other people and not tell asinine jokes about someone's body for instance.

Well, like many other movements, feminism has become radicalized, at least in my experience, i.e., maybe I have run into this vein; the "77 c on the dollar" buttons, unqualified, etc. But, seriously, just the fact that you have not observed certain things is a strong argument that they are not there? I have detailed some points here, with data to support, so my claims are not just annecdotal : preferential treatment in family court, requirement sin some states for fathers to support children that they can prove (through DNA testing) are not theirs, imprisonment rates of around 93:7 for men : women, etc. I can see racism as a clear wrong, but I don't see a clear case for gender bias.

Here in NY state the degree of PC is incredible, both ways. There is a new program called " NYC Men Teach" , which claims to not discriminate on gender, race, etc. Seriously? You are trying to explicitly hire men to teach and then you claim that you are not discriminating on gender? But then you also see preferences given to women-owned businesses. PC may have started as a well-intention-ed movement but it has degenerated into insincere double-speak. This is why I speak my mind, because these beliefs may ultimately become laws unless contested. And I am hardly privileged in any respect, and don't want to have to compete in a world where I am seen as being so. The hard left has become, is, as stupid as the hard right; there is a general trend of radicalization, because this sells.

 

[radium]

The biases you refer to in family court are a huge problem and very unfair, but they to reflect prevailing attitudes towards gender in society as mothers are seen as more nurturing because of social expectations. I personally believe that real feminism is about empowering women and defying these stereotypes. Feminism is not just for women, it is also about improving the lives of men. Gender bias hurts everyone. For example, a lot of men struggle a lot getting help for mental illness because they feel it makes them weak. That's very harmful for society.

There is evidence that the comments you make about incarceration rates have a biological basis (the fact that gender has a biological basis is undeniable). Men are suspected to be more reckless and commit violent crimes for hormonal reasons.

It's hard to know why women choose not to go into fields like physics. It is likely that the percentage of women will never be equal. However, what we want to ensure is that everyone is treated the same and has the same opportunities regardless of their gender. This is not yet true. There have been studies that when women collaborate with men that people assume that the men did most of the work and get offered less money with the same qualifications. You may say this is anecdotal, but when there are so many anecdotes people should start to wonder why.

You seem to have a lot of distrust towards women. I'm not sure why, but I think it would help if you stepped back and tried to have more empathy for what women go through.

 

[WWGD]

You seem to have a lot of distrust towards women. I'm not sure why, but I think it would help if you stepped back and tried to have more empathy for what women go through.

Ditto for people like you who think only women suffer mistreatment and not seeing your side of the story aired. And for having to be so often demonized as the oppressor, when I am hardly getting by.

 

[radium]

I'm sorry that things aren't going well from you. I did not say men don't face hardships too, that was the point I made in the beginning of my post. But that doesn't mean sexism is not a real problem. It manifests itself in ways that harm both men and women. What I could consider to be real feminism does not demonize anyone it's about trying to grow as a society and there are both men and women dedicated to this cause.
I don't think this will change your mind so we can agree to disagree.

 

[WWGD]

I'm sorry that things aren't going well from you. I did not say men don't face hardships too, that was the point I made in the beginning of my post. But that doesn't mean sexism is not a real problem. It manifests itself in ways that harm both men and women. What I could consider to be real feminism does not demonize anyone it's about trying to grow as a society and there are both men and women dedicated to this cause.
I don't think this will change your mind so we can agree to disagree.

I can only attest to the brand of feminism I have encountered; I allow for the possibility that there may be other brands that may be more like you describe.

 

[radium]

I would say feminism is like socialism, there are many varieties which lie on a spectrum. Some are practical and pragmatic, others are very radical and in my opinion distort and misrepresent the real message by thriving on anger and distrust.
This is unfortunately very similar to what we are seeing on both sides of US politics these days.

 

[Derek Francis]

I do think, to an extent, women are discriminated against in academia. Currently, girls are outperforming boys in schools and, generally, more women are enrolled in university than men, so the future is in their favor. However, right now, STEM fields are still largely male dominated, and when you are a minority in any field, there is more pressure.

Particularly, in our culture, I do think men are sort of told to be very confident (as a result many overestimate their abilities) while women are generally told to be very humble (as a result, underestimating their abilities). Neither extreme is good.

 

[Derek Francis]

I would call myself a feminist (a practical one), in that I'd want equal treatment of both genders and I'd want my future daughter to have the same opportunities and be treated with the same respect as my future son.

Doesn't mean I'm super obsessed with political correctness, that I'm anti-men or that I ignore the issues that men exclusively face.

I think having the same exact androgynous standards (in careers, justice, dating, sexuality and so on) for both genders is the only way to move forward. No double standards - just fair flat standards for everybody.