Maps of Ringed Spaces: Definition & Equivalence

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definitions and equivalences of differentiable functions between differentiable manifolds and morphisms of locally ringed spaces. Participants explore the implications of these definitions, particularly in the context of algebraic geometry versus differential geometry.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the definition of a differentiable function as a continuous map and proposes that it should be defined as a homomorphism of locally ringed spaces, suggesting that these definitions might be equivalent.
  • Another participant points out that a morphism of locally ringed spaces requires a continuous function and a morphism of sheaves, noting that the original post did not specify the latter.
  • A participant clarifies their assumption about the morphism of sheaves, indicating that it is defined by the composition of functions, and asserts that this induces a local homomorphism between stalks.
  • There is a conjecture presented that any homomorphism of locally ringed spaces will be "pullback-like," questioning whether this is correct.
  • Discussion arises regarding the differences in behavior between differential geometry and algebraic geometry, particularly in how structure sheaves relate to functions.
  • A participant emphasizes that structure sheaves in algebraic geometry are abstract rings and may not correspond directly to functions, which complicates the relationship between maps of topological spaces and structure sheaves.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on whether there are examples where the structure sheaf of a real manifold is not isomorphic to a sheaf of real-valued functions, indicating a potential misunderstanding of the discussion's focus.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions and implications of morphisms in the contexts of algebraic and differential geometry. There is no consensus on the equivalence of the definitions or the implications of these structures.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the definitions provided, particularly regarding the necessary conditions for morphisms of sheaves and the implications of local properties in different geometrical contexts.

Mandelbroth
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I recently bought a copy of S. Ramanan's Global Calculus. I skimmed around a bit. Naturally, I was confused when it defined a differentiable function ##f:M\to N## between differentiable manifolds as a continuous map such that, for each ##x\in M## and for each ##\phi\in\mathcal{O}_N(V)##, where ##V\ni f(x)## is some neighborhood of ##f(x)## in ##N## and ##\mathcal{O}_N## is the structure sheaf of ##N##, the composition ##\phi\circ f## is in ##f_*\mathcal{O}_M(V)##.

I'd think the more appropriate definition would be that ##f:M\to N## is differentiable if (and only if) it is a homomorphism of locally ringed spaces. I believe these two definitions are equivalent, but I haven't checked yet, due to a more general question to muse over: if two locally ringed spaces have structure sheaves that would allow for the composition in the first definition to make sense, would an analogue of the first definition define homomorphisms of locally ringed spaces between two such structures?

I do not think this holds for ringed spaces of the same nature, since definition #1 is essentially a "local" condition, but I don't know how to show this. Could someone please explain where this goes wrong for ringed spaces? Thank you.
 
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A morphism of (locally) ringed spaces ##(X,\mathcal{O}_X)## and ##(Y,\mathcal{O}_Y)## is given by two data, a continuous function ##f:X\rightarrow Y## and a morphism of sheafs ##f^\sharp: \mathcal{O}_Y\rightarrow f_*\mathcal{O}_X##. You have not specified what this morphism of sheafs would be.
 
micromass said:
A morphism of (locally) ringed spaces ##(X,\mathcal{O}_X)## and ##(Y,\mathcal{O}_Y)## is given by two data, a continuous function ##f:X\rightarrow Y## and a morphism of sheafs ##f^\sharp: \mathcal{O}_Y\rightarrow f_*\mathcal{O}_X##. You have not specified what this morphism of sheafs would be.
Indeed, being cocky with notation has the added effect of not being clear.

I implicitly assumed that the morphism of sheaves is given by ##f^\sharp:\mathcal{O}_N\to f_*\mathcal{O}_M##, where on each open ##U\subseteq N##, ##f^\sharp_U:\mathcal{O}_N(U)\to f_*\mathcal{O}_M(U)## is defined by ##f^\sharp_U(\varphi)=\varphi\circ f##. Now that I've been motivated to check it, this is clearly a homomorphism of rings, and in fact induces a local homomorphism between stalks (!) since ##\mathfrak{m}_{f(x)}=\{\phi\in\mathcal{O}_{N,f(x)}\vert \phi(f(x))=0\}## and ##\mathfrak{m}_x=\{\psi\in\mathcal{O}_{M,x}\vert \psi(x)=0\}##.

In this light, I'd say that sheaves of functions would satisfy this, correct?

Edit: Now that I'm thinking about it, I have yet another thought.

Conjecture:
Because of the necessary correspondence of maximal ideals, I don't even have to define what my morphism of sheaves is!

Any homomorphism of locally ringed spaces in this case will necessarily be "pullback-like." Is this correct?
 
Last edited:
Mandelbroth said:
In this light, I'd say that sheaves of functions would satisfy this, correct?

Yes, in differential geometry context this follows quite easily from usual function theoretic arguments. In algebraic geometry it doesn't follow so easily.
 
micromass said:
In algebraic geometry it doesn't follow so easily.
Could you please explain why?
 
Mandelbroth said:
Could you please explain why?

Because the structure sheafs in algebraic geometry are abstract rings and might not have anything to do with functions. Of course, we can still view elements of the structure sheafs as functions and this gives us good intuiton, but pure formally they can be anything.

The good situation here was that a map between the topological spaces actually implied a map between the structure sheafs by just composition. This fails dramatically in the algebraic geometry setting and we need to actually write down the two maps there. Furthermore, we need to demand axiomatically that the maps satisfy the local property.

Of course, in the case of affine schemes, things behave nicely.
 
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micromass said:
Because the structure sheafs in algebraic geometry are abstract rings and might not have anything to do with functions.
Oh. I thought I was clear when I said "sheaves of functions." By this, I meant sheaves [strike]that have[/strike] whose sections [strike]that[/strike] are functions. Sorry for being confusing.

Once again, thank you!
 
micromass said:
Because the structure sheafs in algebraic geometry are abstract rings and might not have anything to do with functions. Of course, we can still view elements of the structure sheafs as functions and this gives us good intuiton, but pure formally they can be anything.

The good situation here was that a map between the topological spaces actually implied a map between the structure sheafs by just composition. This fails dramatically in the algebraic geometry setting and we need to actually write down the two maps there. Furthermore, we need to demand axiomatically that the maps satisfy the local property.

Of course, in the case of affine schemes, things behave nicely.
I think I misinterpreted what was being said. Is there an example where the structure sheaf of a (real) manifold is not naturally isomorphic to a sheaf of real-valued functions?
 
Mandelbroth said:
I think I misinterpreted what was being said. Is there an example where the structure sheaf of a (real) manifold is not naturally isomorphic to a sheaf of real-valued functions?

I was talking of algebraic geometry, not differential geometry.
 

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