- #51

Pythagorean

Gold Member

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You're tying two merge arguments together here, once again bringing QM back into it. If you're not arguing the fundamental nature of the universe is mathematical, then this argument is dead!You keep making these statements about the human brain. First you said that there's some essential part of mathematics that is connected to human brains having evolved in the macroscopic world but I think I've demonstrated that our mathematics works just fine on the quantum level and nothing is invalidated by QM nor has to be corrected for that.

The technique of mathematics can be

*applied*to anything, that doesn't make it invented. It is with our brains that we apply the technique of mathematics, that is the argument. Ironically, having an answer for everything is a symptom of pseudoscience (but not sufficient to call mathematics pseudoscience, of course). You give me something, and I guarantee I'll be able to use my creativity and fit mathematics to any question you ask me. That's not because mathematics is discovered.

With many inventions, the full capabilities of the invention are discovered later. The way the invention can be used is discovered, but the invention is invented.

And I still assert that your desire for mathematics to be discovered is a consequence of your brain developing in a macroscopic world (I meant this in terms of your sensory and intellectual experience, by the way).

**And I did present evidence**(don't know if you watched the lectures or not from that previous thread way back when) about how the brain sees patterns that aren't there. It's a common psychological experiment that can be proven to a whole audience.

How could we tell and how would that prove mathematics is discovered? The whole point is that we're a part of the universe, interacting with it, not something safely studying it from behind a glass window. We change the universe by seeing it how we want to (please don't interpret this as mind over matter will power bs, think more practically like when we imagine a space shuttle in the sky, then we send it there, interacting with and changing our universe)Is there anything in particular you can point to that would indicate what about our mathematics would be incomparable or incompatible with some other sort of mathematics? Or anything you can point to in mathematics that seems particularly dependent upon the human brain for it to be true?

no, I can't prove that mathematics is invented. I can only debunk your claims that mathematics is discovered.

The whole question may very well be meaningless in the context of dualism (which is what we're practicing here)

Ok, still, we can invalidate the crappy hypothetical alien argument with the fact that people invent things independently all the time. Just because a human and an alien both invent the same theories and axioms, does not mean they are discovered. Furthermore, it shouldn't imply that they're correct! There's no way for you to tell if the axioms you chose are cutting you off from a deeper understanding of reality.Again, if they were presented with a definition of π, would they be unable to see how it had anything to do with circles or trigonometry or wave mechanics or whatever analogs of those things might exist in their mathematics? Would they conclude somehow that we had reached an incorrect value for π?

And does this all apply to their physics too? Would our physics seem to them like a bunch of nonsense unconnected to the physical world?

I don't think so. I think it would be just like I said above:

And similarly, I think that π and its relationship to circles, trigonometric and other periodic functions, and wave mechanics is a mathematical fact that could not contradict anything within an alien's mathematics.

And no, their interactions may not be the same as ours at all, there's no way to guarantee they would experience the world the same us. We could drop them off a skyscraper and measure the physics of their collisions with the ground and we'd interpret physics the same as we always did, but there's no reason they'd develop the same technological/scientific perception of the universe that we have, unless they're brains are a lot like ours, in which case we're not surprised when multiple people from the same race come up with different inventions, so it shouldn't be much of a stretch for a similar neurological composition.