MBA + Engineering: Job Prospects & Benefits

[EngWiPy]

Hello all,

Is it beneficial to get MBA beside an engineering degree in terms of enhancing my chances in getting a job?

Thanks

 

[Choppy]

Well, from one point of view it would certainly broaden your qualifications, so technically yes it would enhance your chances of getting "a" job.

But as always the devil lies in the details.

One issue with getting an MBA right out of undergrad (or through some kind of combined program) is that in order to use it, you'll be applying for management positions at the entry level. And this is tough, particularly in a slow economy where there are lots of people with practical experience looking for such positions.

In your particular circumstance, you would likely be looking for a position where you would be managing engineers. As an exntension of the above you'll face the problem of trying to manage people that have more experience that you do at whatever it is your employer does. On top of that, you may feel as though if you're not getting a position that uses both skill sets, you've somehow wasted money and time, and this could effectively restrict, rather than enhance your available options.

And I'm sure that not all MBAs are created equal. I'm sure there are some pretty intensive programs out there that can give you a lot of practical skills. But I'm sure there are others that are pretty high on the fluffy content too.

Because an MBA is a master's degree, it would typically be taken in sequence anyway. So why not take your engineering program and then opt for electives in commerce or management or economics and see if that's the kind of thing that really appeals to you. In the long run it might be cheaper to find out that you don't like it after an elective course or two rather than after taking on another two years of debt.

 

[EngWiPy]

OK, thanks. Let me give you my backgrounds: I hold B.Sc in Computer Engineering, and M.Sc and PhD in Electrical Engineering.

I guess my big mistake was to switch to Electrical Engineering/Wireless Communication (I switched because I like mathematics). Now searching for a job I've found that software/hardware engineers are in demand more than wireless communication engineers.

I thought may be an MBA will correct my situation a little with minimal damage (in terms of money and time), but it doesn't sound guaranteed from what I understood from your reply, unless the details given above change the situation.

I'm also thinking to do some self-teaching in some programming languages, and go back to focus on computer stuff. Will that be better than continuing my current path as a PhD in EE with/without MBA?

 

[SteamKing]

OK, thanks. Let me give you my backgrounds: I hold B.Sc in Computer Engineering, and M.Sc and PhD in Electrical Engineering.

I guess my big mistake was to switch to Electrical Engineering/Wireless Communication (I switched because I like mathematics). Now searching for a job I've found that software/hardware engineers are in demand more than wireless communication engineers.

I thought may be an MBA will correct my situation a little with minimal damage (in terms of money and time), but it doesn't sound guaranteed from what I understood from your reply, unless the details given above change the situation.

I'm also thinking to do some self-teaching in some programming languages, and go back to focus on computer stuff. Will that be better than continuing my current path as a PhD in EE with/without MBA?

It's not clear, with your advanced degrees in EE and a bachelors in Computer Engineering, why your education excludes you from competing with others for software/hardware engineering.

I think additional exposure to SW/HW engineering courses would be more beneficial to you than spending time acquiring an MBA. People can find MBAs to hire all over the place (who do you think got downsized in the Great Recession?), but it takes a fair amount of training (and importantly work experience) to produce a good engineer, whether it is in wireless communication or SW/HW engineering.

 

[StatGuy2000]

It's not clear, with your advanced degrees in EE and a bachelors in Computer Engineering, why your education excludes you from competing with others for software/hardware engineering.

I think additional exposure to SW/HW engineering courses would be more beneficial to you than spending time acquiring an MBA. People can find MBAs to hire all over the place (who do you think got downsized in the Great Recession?), but it takes a fair amount of training (and importantly work experience) to produce a good engineer, whether it is in wireless communication or SW/HW engineering.

S_David, help me understand this. You have a Bsc in Computer Engineering and a PhD in Electrical Engineering. What is your current employment status? Are you currently unemployed? As SteamKing pointed out in the above quote, I don't see how, given your education, you can't compete with others for software or hardware engineering jobs in your area.

Second of all, where are you currently located? If you can't find a job that would appeal to you locally, why not relocate, or is that an option not available to you?

 

[EngWiPy]

My experience is only in theoretical research. In the industry they need 3+ years of practical experience at least, which I don't have. Also, I haven't been in touch with computer theory since I graduated 10+ years ago. I'm not unemployed currently, but I'm looking for better options.

 

[SteamKing]

My experience is only in theoretical research. In the industry they need 3+ years of practical experience, which I don't have. Also, I haven't been in touch with computer theory since I graduated 10+ years ago.

You seem like a smart guy.

The basics will always be the basics. What you need is to fill in the gaps of your knowledge of the latest in HW/SW development tools and devices.

New chips and new development tools are always coming available in this field. I'm pretty sure it's the same deal with wireless comm.

 

[EngWiPy]

You seem like a smart guy.

The basics will always be the basics. What you need is to fill in the gaps of your knowledge of the latest in HW/SW development tools and devices.

New chips and new development tools are always coming available in this field. I'm pretty sure it's the same deal with wireless comm.

That's why I'm asking. I need to invest my time in something. But I'm not sure if I shall continue in EE (which is easier for me because I'm already in the cutting edge technology, at least in theory), or go back to computer materials (which will take me some time to catch up and master the theory), or get an MBA.

What about the practical experience in both fields? How can one get a job with this requirement? You still need it even if you know all the theory, right?

 

[SteamKing]

That's why I'm asking. I need to invest my time in something. But I'm not sure if I shall continue in EE (which is easier for me because I'm already in the cutting edge technology, at least in theory), or go back to computer materials (which will take me some time to catch up and master the theory), or get an MBA.

What about the practical experience in both fields? How can one get a job with this requirement? You still need it even if you know all the theory, right?

It's a typical Catch-22. Employers want to hire candidates with experience, but which employers are willing to give new graduates the opportunity to get some experience?

That's why internships/summer jobs can be very useful to a person looking to start a career.

I still don't see how an MBA is going to bring you current with developments in computer HW/SW development.

 

[EngWiPy]

...

I still don't see how an MBA is going to bring you current with developments in computer HW/SW development.

I'm not sure myself. I asked this as a question.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My experience is only in theoretical research. In the industry they need 3+ years of practical experience at least, which I don't have. Also, I haven't been in touch with computer theory since I graduated 10+ years ago. I'm not unemployed currently, but I'm looking for better options.

When you talk about 3+ years of practical experience, are you talking about what is required for the job you're trying to apply to, or about the work experience required to qualify for the PE license (or the P.Eng license if you're in Canada)?

If the former, then the 3+ years is more of a "wish list" than a firm requirement. I would suggest going ahead with applying to as many positions as possible, as well as network if your fellow engineering students, professors, etc, not to mention attending conferences to see what opportunities are available.

I should also add that as far as software engineering is concerned, it's highly unlikely you will have to work directly with "computer theory" (if by that you mean theoretical computer science e.g. theory of algorithms). If you can program (which all computer engineers & electrical engineers should be able to do), then I don't see why you should have difficulty in finding employment in that sector.

 

[EngWiPy]

When you talk about 3+ years of practical experience, are you talking about what is required for the job you're trying to apply to, or about the work experience required to qualify for the PE license (or the P.Eng license if you're in Canada)?

If the former, then the 3+ years is more of a "wish list" than a firm requirement. I would suggest going ahead with applying to as many positions as possible, as well as network if your fellow engineering students, professors, etc, not to mention attending conferences to see what opportunities are available.

I should also add that as far as software engineering is concerned, it's highly unlikely you will have to work directly with "computer theory" (if by that you mean theoretical computer science e.g. theory of algorithms). If you can program (which all computer engineers & electrical engineers should be able to do), then I don't see why you should have difficulty in finding employment in that sector.

Yes, it's the former; a requirement for the job. I skipped many jobs advertisements because of this experience, but also because I miss some skills. Because of my master and PhD in EE I'm very good in MATLAB. I knew very good C++/C# in my undergrad, but I forgot it all. I'm trying to re-visit them. When I said computer theory, I meant for hardware design using VHDL for example. I was familiar with this as well in my undergrad in Computer Architecture courses. Again, I forgot it all. Conferences are usually all academia, and the best I can get is a postdoc position since the competition on faculty positions is very high. I think in the industry I have more benefits at all levels.

 

[Asteropaeus]

Having an MBA makes sense when employers are going to consider you for management jobs.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yes, it's the former; a requirement for the job. I skipped many jobs advertisements because of this experience, but also because I miss some skills. Because of my master and PhD in EE I'm very good in MATLAB. I knew very good C++/C# in my undergrad, but I forgot it all. I'm trying to re-visit them. When I said computer theory, I meant for hardware design using VHDL for example. I was familiar with this as well in my undergrad in Computer Architecture courses. Again, I forgot it all. Conferences are usually all academia, and the best I can get is a postdoc position since the competition on faculty positions is very high. I think in the industry I have more benefits at all levels.

Then my suggestion would be to re-visit and become familiar with C++/C#, as well as programming in new languages such as Python, Java, etc. Ideally you can do this while you are working as a postdoc. I would suggest (if you haven't done so already) setting up a github account where you can post your code on various projects you've worked on your own (whether it be in code in MATLAB, or new projects you are working on in C++/C#, Python, etc.). There are various refresher programming courses also available online, (e.g. Coursera, edX, Codeacademy) that you can look into,

I would also suggest contacting recruiters for engineering positions (you should find those specializing in engineering positions online), as well as getting in touch with classmates whom you've graduated with in engineering (both at the undergraduate level, as well as fellow grad students) and network about positions available, and apply to absolutely every position available for software positions, with especial focus on scientific programming/computing positions (given your background in MATLAB -- MATLAB experience is often sought after in finance type jobs, for example).

As far as conferences are concerned, for the American Statistical Association (of which I'm a member), employers from both academia and industry often show up touting the various positions, in places like the Joint Statistical Meeting (held once a year). I'm sure IEEE or ACM should have similar types of conferences -- you should definitely attend these and reach out to employers who are manning the booths there.

As far as I'm concerned, an MBA degree is a waste of time until you are already working full time for a number of years. Once you are at that stage, then you can consider an MBA degree, preferably with your employer paying for the program.

 

[EngWiPy]

Then my suggestion would be to re-visit and become familiar with C++/C#, as well as programming in new languages such as Python, Java, etc. Ideally you can do this while you are working as a postdoc. I would suggest (if you haven't done so already) setting up a github account where you can post your code on various projects you've worked on your own (whether it be in code in MATLAB, or new projects you are working on in C++/C#, Python, etc.). There are various refresher programming courses also available online, (e.g. Coursera, edX, Codeacademy) that you can look into,

I would also suggest contacting recruiters for engineering positions (you should find those specializing in engineering positions online), as well as getting in touch with classmates whom you've graduated with in engineering (both at the undergraduate level, as well as fellow grad students) and network about positions available, and apply to absolutely every position available for software positions, with especial focus on scientific programming/computing positions (given your background in MATLAB -- MATLAB experience is often sought after in finance type jobs, for example).

As far as conferences are concerned, for the American Statistical Association (of which I'm a member), employers from both academia and industry often show up touting the various positions, in places like the Joint Statistical Meeting (held once a year). I'm sure IEEE or ACM should have similar types of conferences -- you should definitely attend these and reach out to employers who are manning the booths there.

As far as I'm concerned, an MBA degree is a waste of time until you are already working full time for a number of years. Once you are at that stage, then you can consider an MBA degree, preferably with your employer paying for the program.

Thanks for you responses. Now I'm more inclined to focus on my fields of study (past and current) rather than exploring new ones. Also thanks for the hint that the experience required in the industry doesn't have to be met. As I said, I skipped many jobs opportunities because of this.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, it's the former; a requirement for the job.

Here's the dirty little secret about job requirements on job postings (particularly in an up economy): they don't exist. They are just wishes.

And even if they did exist, the extra education is generally counted similar to experience.

 

[EngWiPy]

Here's the dirty little secret about job requirements on job postings (particularly in an up economy): they don't exist. They are just wishes.

And even if they did exist, the extra education is generally counted similar to experience.

Thank you. As I stated before, most job opportunities I've found are in the computer's domain: hardware and software development and verification. But I have an advanced degree in wireless communication (Electrical engineering), and I finished my computer engineering degree 9+ years ago. Are you saying with this little experience, and probably forgotten knowledge, I still have a chance to secure a job in the computer's field? In some jobs' descriptions, I have little or no skills whatsoever to perform what they require. Will they train me for example? and if yes, will I be compensated for during this training period?

 

[russ_watters]

Thank you. As I stated before, most job opportunities I've found are in the computer's domain: hardware and software development and verification. But I have an advanced degree in wireless communication (Electrical engineering), and I finished my computer engineering degree 9+ years ago. Are you saying with this little experience, and probably forgotten knowledge, I still have a chance to secure a job in the computer's field?

Well I wouldn't say it like that in the interview, but yes if that is what you are looking for and your undergrad fits you have decent odds. Your biggest issue seems like that you don't really know what you want to do and/or how to go about it, so you just keep piling-up degrees that may or may not help you. Either way, my advice is to widen your net when searching for a job.

In some jobs' descriptions, I have little or no skills whatsoever to perform what they require. Will they train me for example? and if yes, will I be compensated for during this training period?

That's entirely job specific. Ask them (or it will say on the description).

 

[EngWiPy]

Well I wouldn't say it like that in the interview, but yes if that is what you are looking for and your undergrad fits you have decent odds. Your biggest issue seems like that you don't really know what you want to do and/or how to go about it, so you just keep piling-up degrees that may or may not help you. Either way, my advice is to widen your net when searching for a job.

That's entirely job specific. Ask them (or it will say on the description).

I expressed my regret switching from computer to electrical. At the time I wasn't completely aware of my chances in the job market. I switched for the sheer reason that I like mathematics. Now after finishing my PhD, and doing 2 years as a postdoc, I realized that computer engineering has much better chance in the job market. I cannot go for ever as a postdoc. First it's temp, and second it doesn't pay well. That's all. I'm trying to fix my mistake to get a decent job. That's why I came here to ask how with the least damage. I was advised not to go for MBA. So, now I eliminated this from my list of options. Now all I left with is theoretical knowledge in both computer and electrical engineering with little or no practical experience outside academia. I've applied to several jobs that I have no skills whatsoever in them. I've applied only because they asked a computer degree. I'm not sure what will happen, but that's all I got now. I'm trying to familiarize myself with programming and other stuff again, but it's going to take time, and there are many things that I cannot focus on one thing, because I'm not sure if I will be ended in hardware or software design/verification. So, yes, I'm lost in a sense.

 

[russ_watters]

I expressed my regret switching from computer to electrical. At the time I wasn't completely aware of my chances in the job market... Now all I left with is theoretical knowledge in both computer and electrical engineering with little or no practical experience outside academia. I've applied to several jobs that I have no skills whatsoever in them. I've applied only because they asked a computer degree. I'm not sure what will happen, but that's all I got.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not understanding this bleak view. There are something on the order of 300,000 electrical engineers in the US and at anyone time probably 15,000 open jobs. Based on your education you should be qualified for several thousand of them.

Most people, when they get their first job, require on the job training either formally or informally because most people have no practical experience when the come out of college. And "I have no skills whatsoever in them" just plain isn't possible for a job that has education requirements that match part of your education. You must be exhibiting tunnel vision.

Does the college you graduated from have career counselors? I think you need someone to sit down with you and look at your qualifications, the types of jobs that are out there and the types you are applying to. Because what you are saying just isn't making any sense.
[edit]
I searched Monster for "electrical engineer" within a 20 mile radius of my city (Philadelphia) and got back just under 1,000 jobs. If you live near a decent sized city, you should literally have hundreds of jobs you can apply for.

This one was third down on the list:
http://job-openings.monster.com/monster/25c32823-3a01-4adf-8732-99fceefdb981?mescoid=1700169001001&jobPosition=5#

 

[EngWiPy]

Electrical engineering has many specializations. My specialization is wireless communication (mathematical modeling and evaluation). I guess electronics and RF design have more chances in the job market. I really am not sure how I'm going to start working with so little experience. I only have theoretical knowledge of things. Also, I don't live in the US. Anyway, I took the advise from here and I'm applying to any job that requires a degree I have.

 

[russ_watters]

Electrical engineering has many specializations. My specialization is wireless communication (mathematical modeling and evaluation).

The vast majority of EE jobs - particularly entry level ones - are looking for EEs and that's it. The specialization is not generally a critical factor. So I think you need to cast a wider net.

 

[EngWiPy]

The vast majority of EE jobs - particularly entry level ones - are looking for EEs and that's it. The specialization is not generally a critical factor. So I think you need to cast a wider net.

I appreciate your (and others) responses. I now have more confidence to apply to a wider range of jobs. Thanks all

 

[StatGuy2000]

Electrical engineering has many specializations. My specialization is wireless communication (mathematical modeling and evaluation). I guess electronics and RF design have more chances in the job market. I really am not sure how I'm going to start working with so little experience. I only have theoretical knowledge of things. Also, I don't live in the US. Anyway, I took the advise from here and I'm applying to any job that requires a degree I have.

Just out of curiosity, where are you located?

 

[EngWiPy]

I live in Canada. I have a little concern and I need some suggestion what I can do about it: my CV is written basically for postdoc position: I write my qualifications, my publications, my research interests ... etc. In my skills I enumerate some skills in software and hardware design using some programs. I cannot write anything else about these since I haven't engaged in any practical experience or projects in them outside academia. Now, I feel that this arrangement of my CV isn't helpful when applying for software/hardware positions, because the majority of it is dedicated to my research experience. Can I do something about this? Any suggestions? Some people suggested to remove my PhD qualifications, because it might be hindering. I'm not sure about that. Is it better to have two separate CVs; one for postdoc and one for software/hardware positions? But then I will be left in the second one with many years of unemployment (like what have I been doing in the last 9 years since I've gotten my BSc?).

Thanks

 

[StatGuy2000]

I live in Canada. I have a little concern and I need some suggestion what I can do about it: my CV is written basically for postdoc position: I write my qualifications, my publications, my research interests ... etc. In my skills I enumerate some skills in software and hardware design using some programs. I cannot write anything else about these since I haven't engaged in any practical experience or projects in them outside academia. Now, I feel that this arrangement of my CV isn't helpful when applying for software/hardware positions, because the majority of it is dedicated to my research experience. Can I do something about this? Any suggestions? Some people suggested to remove my PhD qualifications, because it might be hindering. I'm not sure about that. Is it better to have two separate CVs; one for postdoc and one for software/hardware positions? But then I will be left in the second one with many years of unemployment (like what have I been doing in the last 9 years since I've gotten my BSc?).

Thanks

I am also based in Canada (Toronto, to be more specific). Where in Canada are you located? I know for a fact that there are electrical engineering positions that are open in areas like the Kitchener/Waterloo area and the GTA in Ontario, and the Montreal area, where someone of your particular skillset should be able to find work without too much difficulty. Are you not able to relocate within Canada?

(the above is assuming that you intend to stay in Canada -- Canadian engineers have had no problems getting work visas to work in the US or elsewhere)

As far as your CV/resume question is concerned, I would suggest creating a CV for academic positions, and separate resumes for each non-academic positions you intend to apply to. Please note: a CV and resume are not synonymous (unless you live in Quebec). Please see the following articles online.

http://www.monster.ca/career-advice/article/whats-the-difference-between-a-resume-and-a-cv-in-Canada

http://theundercoverrecruiter.com/cv-vs-resume-difference-and-when-use-which/

The key difference between a CV and a resume is that a CV is a comprehensive list of your experience, whereas a resume is a brief summary of your skills and experiences, and is highly customizable to every position.

In both your CV and you resume, you need to craft a summary statement, that captures the best of you in 100 words or less. Here you can mention your particular skill set and knowledge you gained during your PhD studies. Then you should summarize your experiences (all of your experiences, research and otherwise), as well as any special skillsets (e.g. any software or hardware knowledge you may have gained on your own) you may have. A CV will go into more details like your publication history, which can be omitted in the resume.

I would also suggest you do not leave out your PhD, as your PhD experience is a form of work experience, in which you gained some skills. Here in Toronto, people with PhDs in electrical engineering (along with PhDs in areas like math, physics, statistics, or other quantitative areas) have found employment in financial or analytics firms, and part of the selling point is the specific quantitative skills gained in those areas. If your interest is in software, a PhD will certainly not be a hindrance.

 

[EngWiPy]

That's what I did. I created two separate documents; one for postdoctoral positions, and one for the industry. But why would I need a resume for each job in the industry? Usually, they ask for a cover letter, which is a separate customized document for each job.

I would relocate if all my options where I live were explored. I don't like relocation. I will keep it as a final resort. Of course, if I considered other provinces in Canada, US and Europe my chances would increase significantly.

Yes, PhD is considered as experience, but how would a PhD in Electrical Engineering help getting a computer programmer job or computer hardware design? The experience in this case is almost irrelevant. These are two separate things.

Electrical engineers are usually strong in mathematics, and in fields like wireless communications they are usually also strong in statistics, but I didn't know they I can work in financial institutions because of their mathematical and statistical skills. This was interesting to know.

Thanks

 

[StatGuy2000]

That's what I did. I created two separate documents; one for postdoctoral positions, and one for the industry. But why would I need a resume for each job in the industry? Usually, they ask for a cover letter, which is a separate customized document for each job.

To answer your above question, a cover letter is only intended as a formality, as a way of introducing yourself to a prospective employer. What an employer really looks for is the resume, and they would glance at the resume for only a few minutes at most. So the key is to make the resume stand out in some way from all others.

If a resume looks like any other resume the hiring manager has looked at before, it is much less likely to be noticed. A customized resume which specifically addresses points/interests related to the job/industry you are applying to will be much more likely to be noticed.

I would relocate if all my options where I live were explored. I don't like relocation. I will keep it as a final resort. Of course, if I considered other provinces in Canada, US and Europe my chances would increase significantly.

I think it would be wise not to be tied down to a specific location, especially early in your career (unless if it is necessary, say due to family concerns).

Yes, PhD is considered as experience, but how would a PhD in Electrical Engineering help getting a computer programmer job or computer hardware design? The experience in this case is almost irrelevant. These are two separate things.

Your PhD demonstrates that you have capabilities in the field of research, which is a form of work experience. Plus completion of a PhD demonstrates that you have capability to learn and adapt quickly, as well as communicate your results, "softer" skills that are sought after by employers. That is relevant in ANY job (whether it is for programming or for hardware design).

Electrical engineers are usually strong in mathematics, and in fields like wireless communications they are usually also strong in statistics, but I didn't know they I can work in financial institutions because of their mathematical and statistical skills. This was interesting to know.

Thanks

I've personally known those with PhDs working in electrical engineering who work for places like TD Securities and Scotiabank (alongside PhDs in math, physics, & statistics). Electrical engineers could also work in areas like analytics/data science. So these are things you may want to consider, if you're interested.

 

[EngWiPy]

I've been applying for about a month now for several jobs in my city and neighboring cities, and two applications got declined immediately, and one I did an interview with a small company's CEO and he declined me, too. Things don't seem that optimistic as I thought it would be.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I've been applying for about a month now for several jobs in my city and neighboring cities, and two applications got declined immediately, and one I did an interview with a small company's CEO and he declined me, too. Things don't seem that optimistic as I thought it would be.

You'll have to keep at it. I cannot stress as well the importance of networking to find more positions. Attend any local conferences. Search online for names of potential senior staff or hiring managers for companies or organizations you are interested in or that you've done research about, and either call them directly or e-mail them and ask to set up an informational interview (this is a type of interview where you get to learn more about the company you're interested in, as well as learn more about the types of positions available). In this way, even if there are no positions available, the senior staff will get to remember you and your name, so that in the future if any positions open up, they'll think of you.

In the mean time, work more on learning various programming languages, publishing your open source code on Github, so that you'll have something you can demonstrate. Talk to any local engineering alumni associations and ask about opportunities. Apply, and keep applying (as an beginning engineer, you should be applying to as many as 100+ positions across Canada and in the US -- don't just focus on your city and neighbouring cities).