Measure on Path Integral not defined

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the undefined nature of the measure in the Feynman path integral, exploring its implications in mathematical analysis and physics. Participants seek clarification on the concept of measure in the context of infinite-dimensional spaces and its relevance to the path integral formulation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the phrase "the undefined nature of the measure" and seek clarification on its implications for the path integral formulation.
  • It is suggested that the measure on the space of paths may not be well defined due to the infinite dimensionality, leading to ambiguities in interpretation.
  • One participant proposes that the term "ambiguous" might be more appropriate than "undefined," emphasizing the need for a clear choice in defining measures for function spaces.
  • Concerns are raised about the inability to form larger measures from disjoint unions of smaller subsets of paths, potentially violating mathematical requirements.
  • Another participant highlights the challenge of defining a measure on an uncountable set of paths, questioning the physical basis for distinguishing between different paths in the continuum.
  • Some argue that the space of paths should be constrained to allow for a countable approximation, while others caution against imposing arbitrary constraints that may lead to physical ambiguities.
  • There is a discussion on the separability of the space of paths, with differing views on whether a well-behaved continuous path space is separable or not.
  • Participants debate whether the measure dx1*dx2*...*dxn is well defined in the context of infinite dimensions, with some asserting it is ill-defined when interpreted as a space of paths.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views regarding the nature of the measure in the path integral, with no consensus reached on its definition or implications. Multiple competing perspectives on the topic remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of measure and the unresolved nature of mathematical steps regarding infinite-dimensional spaces. The discussion reflects various assumptions about the physical interpretation of paths and measures.

  • #31
friend said:
I have read excerpts that complain that no measure can be given to the space of "paths". Is the space of paths just an interpretation of the \mathcal{D}\phi?
No, the space of paths is a space of functions. \mathcal{D}\phi is a measure on that space. You can prove that this measure doesn't exist, however the space of paths does exist.

friend said:
From what I've seen the proof contains an operation that divides by the dimensionality, or some number to the power of the dimensionality, which gives zero for the measure of infinite dimension. I wonder if it is possible to talk about the measure for finite but approaching infinite for dimensionality?
Well \mathcal{D}\phi exists at finite dimensions. However it doesn't exist in infinite dimensions. This doesn't matter, because the object you should by considering is e^{-S[\phi]}\mathcal{D}\phi which exists in finite and more importantly infinite dimensions.
 
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  • #32
DarMM said:
No, the space of paths is a space of functions. \mathcal{D}\phi is a measure on that space. You can prove that this measure doesn't exist, however the space of paths does exist.
As you are probably aware, I'm only now just starting to acquaint myself with all this advanced measure theory stuff as it applies to the path integral. It seems really quite complicated, and I would rather not delve too deeply into it unless I have to.

I'm presently starting to browse through Johnson and Lapidus, "The Feynman Integral and Feynman's Operational Calculus". I get sentences here and there that claim the non-existence of the Feynman measure and that there is no countably additive measure on the space of paths, etc. But I'm not seeing any clear proof of those claims. I probably wouldn't know if I saw it, but I would think if it were clear, then there would be reference to theorems and sections in the book where the proof would be worked out. So I'm getting confusing signals at this point. And I'm not sure any of this is actually relevant to my interests. But perhaps you know of a resouce where these issues are explained more clearly.


DarMM said:
Well \mathcal{D}\phi exists at finite dimensions. However it doesn't exist in infinite dimensions. This doesn't matter, because the object you should by considering is e^{-S[\phi]}\mathcal{D}\phi which exists in finite and more importantly infinite dimensions.

Yes, I came to the same conclusion just by iterating a recursion relation of the gaussian form of the dirac delta function (post 21 in this thread). It very much appeals to me to think that the measure of the path integral can be derived from the measure associated with the dirac delta. For it seems the dirac delta is the most basic of all measures, counting only those elements in a set. And I wonder more fundamentally if all measures can be described in terms of the dirac delta measure. Have you come across anything like that in your studies?

One interesting philosophical consideration is that the path integral does give physical results. And so one would expect that the path integral would have well defined mathematical underpinnings. How could undefined mathematics give physical results unless reality itself is undefinable?
 
  • #33
friend said:
But perhaps you know of a resouce where these issues are explained more clearly.

Are you aware of the book "Mathematical Theory of Feynman Path Integrals: An Introduction" by Sergio A. Albeverio, et. al. ? Perhaps that would be of use to you.
 
  • #34
DarMM said:
However the object e^{-S[\phi]}\mathcal{D}\phi, which is the euclidean path integral, is well defined in the case of quantum mechanics.

Is this the "Wiener measure"? Can it be analytically continued to the imaginary plane to provide a measure for the Feynman path integral?

DarMM said:
In the case of QFT some care is needed in defining e^{-S[\phi]}\mathcal{D}\phi,...

Is it sufficient to require that the \phi be square integrable so that the exponent exists?

DarMM said:
However the Minkowski path integral can not be defined, proving this is actually an exercise in Reed and Simon Volume II.

So the question still remains for me: does the Feynman path integral have a well defined measure for QFT?

Thanks
 
  • #35
friend said:
Is this the "Wiener measure"? Can it be analytically continued to the imaginary plane to provide a measure for the Feynman path integral?
No, although the heuristics work for most calculations.

Is it sufficient to require that the \phi be square integrable so that the exponent exists?
It's best to view e^{-S[\phi]} and \mathcal{D}\phi together, rather than looking for conditions for one to make sense on its own.

So the question still remains for me: does the Feynman path integral have a well defined measure for QFT?
No, the Minkowski space path integral (Feynman path integral) does not have a well defined measure.
 
  • #36
DarMM said:
No, the Minkowski space path integral (Feynman path integral) does not have a well defined measure.

I'm wondering if an integral recursion relation whose measure is well defined might help define the Feynman path integral measure. In my limited reading on the subject I've not noticed the use of a recursion relation in the discussion of the Feynman path integral measure, has anyone here seen such use?

I'm thinking of using a Chapman-Kolmogorov equation as a recursion relation,

\[\int_{ - \infty }^{ + \infty } {\left( {\frac{\lambda }{{2\pi \left( {t - s} \right)}}} \right)^{\frac{1}{2}} e^{ - {\textstyle{{\lambda (\omega - \upsilon )^2 } \over {2\left( {t - s} \right)}}}} \left( {\frac{\lambda }{{2\pi \left( {s - r} \right)}}} \right)^{\frac{1}{2}} e^{ - {\textstyle{{\lambda (\upsilon - u)^2 } \over {2\left( {s - r} \right)}}}} {\rm{d}}\upsilon } = \left( {\frac{\lambda }{{2\pi \left( {t - r} \right)}}} \right)^{\frac{1}{2}} e^{ - {\textstyle{{\lambda (\omega - u)^2 } \over {2\left( {t - r} \right)}}}} \]

If necessary I can show proof of this equation. Now this equation is well defined, it's a normal type integral with a lebesgue measure, right? What if lambda is imaginary, is it still a well defined integral? I don't see why not.

If we put limits on (s-r) and (t-s) so they each approach zero independently, then we have,

\[<br /> \mathop {\lim }\limits_{\left( {t - s} \right) \to 0} \left( {\frac{\lambda }{{2\pi \left( {t - s} \right)}}} \right)^{\frac{1}{2}} e^{ - {\textstyle{{\lambda (\omega - \upsilon )^2 } \over {2\left( {t - s} \right)}}}} = {\rm{\delta (}}\omega - \upsilon )<br /> \]<br />

\[<br /> \mathop {\lim }\limits_{\left( {s - r} \right) \to 0} \left( {\frac{\lambda }{{2\pi \left( {s - r} \right)}}} \right)^{\frac{1}{2}} e^{ - {\textstyle{{\lambda (\upsilon - u)^2 } \over {2\left( {s - r} \right)}}}} = {\rm{\delta (}}\upsilon - u)<br /> \]<br />

and,

\[<br /> \mathop {\lim }\limits_{\left( {t - r} \right) \to 0} \left( {\frac{\lambda }{{2\pi \left( {t - r} \right)}}} \right)^{\frac{1}{2}} e^{ - {\textstyle{{\lambda (\omega - u)^2 } \over {2\left( {t - r} \right)}}}} = {\rm{\delta (}}\omega - u)<br /> \]<br />

So that,

\[<br /> \int_{ - \infty }^{ + \infty } {{\rm{\delta (}}\omega - \upsilon {\rm{)\delta (}}\upsilon - u){\rm{d}}\upsilon } = {\rm{\delta (}}\omega - u)<br /> \]<br />

Does placing limits as shown above change the nature of the measure? Is it still a well defined integral? I suppose it would be necessary to do the integration first before taking the limits of (t-s), (s-r), and (t-r), in the same way that you have to do the integral first and then take the limit when integrating a single delta that equals one. So if you do the limits later, then the integral must have the same measure as before without the limits. Then perhaps taking the limits turns the resulting gaussing distribution into a Dirac measure, which is the measure used when integrating the next iteration, right?

If we replace \[<br /> \omega <br /> \]<br /> with \[<br /> {\rm{x}}<br /> \]<br />, replace \[<br /> \upsilon <br /> \]<br /> with \[<br /> {{\rm{x}}_1 }<br /> \]<br />, and replace \[<br /> u<br /> \]<br /> with \[<br /> {{\rm{x}}_0 }<br /> \]<br />, then we have,

\[<br /> \int_{ - \infty }^{ + \infty } {{\rm{\delta (x - x}}_1 {\rm{)\delta (x}}_1 {\rm{ - x}}_0 ){\rm{dx}}_1 } = {\rm{\delta (x - x}}_0 )<br /> \]<br />

This is a recursion relation that can be iterated any number of times to get the path integral when the gaussian form of the dirac delta is used. See post 21 in this thread.

Since we will always get \[<br /> {\rm{\delta (x - x}}_0 )<br /> \]<br /> no matter how many times the recursion relation is iterated, doesn't this prove that the path integral must be well defined too, since the delta on the right can be considered a well defined measure, and since the delta here is independent of the number of iterations even if iterated an infinite number of times?
 
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