Measures beyond Lebesgue: are Solovay's proofs extendible to them?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the applicability of Solovay's proofs regarding measures in the context of ZF and ZFC set theories, specifically questioning whether these proofs can be extended to measures beyond Lebesgue measure. The scope includes theoretical considerations of measure theory and the implications of large cardinal axioms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss Solovay's proofs, noting that under ZF with the existence of a measurable cardinal, a measure can be constructed such that all sets of real numbers are measurable, while under ZFC, certain sets like the Vitali set are not measurable.
  • One participant questions whether the proofs can be extended to all measures, suggesting the possibility of a measure under ZFC and a strong large cardinal axiom that could render all sets measurable.
  • Another participant points out that a trivial measure, which assigns measure zero to every set, would make all sets measurable.
  • A non-trivial example of a measure, the Dirac measure, is proposed as a potential candidate for making all sets measurable.
  • One participant acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding the type of measures being considered, indicating that if additive and translation invariant measures were prerequisites, the discussion would lead back to Lebesgue measure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the extension of Solovay's proofs to measures beyond Lebesgue measure, with some proposing alternative measures while others clarify the limitations of their initial assumptions. There is no consensus on the applicability of these proofs to all measures.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of measures being discussed and the assumptions regarding additivity and translation invariance, which were not initially stated by all participants.

nomadreid
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In 1970, Solovay proved that,
although
(1) under the assumptions of ZF & "there exists a real-valued measurable cardinal", one could construct a measure μ (specifically, a countably additive extension of Lebesgue measure) such that all sets of real numbers were measurable (wrt μ),
nonetheless
(2) under the assumption of ZFC, one can construct a set (e.g., the Vitali set) which is not Lebesgue measurable.

However, I am not sure whether these proofs carry over to all measures: in other words, is it conceivable that, under ZFC & a sufficiently strong large cardinal axiom, there is a measure M so that all sets of real numbers are measurable wrt M? (For example, it would seem reasonable that the Vitali set is also not measurable by the μ in (1), but what of other measures?)
 
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I am not familiar with the work you are discussing. However with a measure, where each point has measure 1, all sets are measurable.
 
nomadreid said:
However, I am not sure whether these proofs carry over to all measures: in other words, is it conceivable that, under ZFC & a sufficiently strong large cardinal axiom, there is a measure M so that all sets of real numbers are measurable wrt M? (For example, it would seem reasonable that the Vitali set is also not measurable by the μ in (1), but what of other measures?)

The trivial measure (sends every set to zero) does the job.

If you want non-trivial example consider the Dirac measure.
 
Ah, thanks to both of you, mathman and pwsnafu. My mistake was that I was unconsciously thinking only of additive measures, so that I simply overlooked the obvious ones you mentioned.
If I had put additive measure as a prerequisite, as well as translation invariant, I would have essentially ended up with Lebesgue measure, which apparently would have made my question vacuous.
 

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