Meatpacking: The Dangerous Reality for Workers

[hypnagogue]

So you sit down comfortably in a restaurant, order a drink, go read the menu, find out there is nothing vegetarian, walk out and find another place

No, you ask to see the menu before you go in and get comfortable. (Of course I can't speak for any restaurants outside of the US, but in my experience most restaurants will have a menu available for perusing at the door, upon request. Many even have the menu displayed in the window.) I check out the menu before I go into a restaurant in most circumstances, although I do it to make sure I don't have to pay exorbitant prices more than anything else.

 

[Moonbear]

So you sit down comfortably in a restaurant, order a drink, go read the menu, find out there is nothing vegetarian, walk out and find another place

Ask to see a menu before you request a table. I've done that many times, not in search of vegetarian cuisine, but just to find out if a new restaurant is a place I'm interested in eating and whether the price range is acceptable. Not to say I haven't walked out of restaurants for other reasons, including lack of a non-smoking section, or after seated, if they don't enforce their non-smoking policy or I find that the non-smoking section is only separated by a half wall from the smoking section, if I have to wait a very long time for the server to appear to take my order, or find that they overcook all the meat (usually some chain restaurant where they refuse to serve meat any less done than medium), or they seem to have run out of all the dishes I was considering ordering. When I walk out after being seated, I tell the waitperson my reason, and unless they are the reason, will still leave them a small tip for their trouble. If you walk out because they don't have any vegetarian options, let them know this. If restaurant owners find out people are walking away because their menu is lacking something that is in demand, they may consider changing the menu. They may not add a lot of variety if there is a limited demand, but perhaps they'd add one or two vegetarion selections so you could join your other friends for a meal. Of course, if you're the only one who says anything to them, then you'll probably just have to look for other places to eat that meet your tastes.

I've also found that if there is something you really do not wish to eat (such as meat products, including broths, etc), the easiest approach to get an honest answer out of a slacking server is to tell them you are very allergic to it and it's really important to know if any of the ingredients have it in it.

Les, "Diet for a Small Planet" contains many inaccurate numbers regarding animal feed requirements. Not the least of which is that humans are even less efficient at converting the energy in grains to muscle mass than are herbivores such as cattle, and one cow feeds a LOT of people.

 

[mattmns]

Recognize the word vegetable in the word vegetarian?

No I don't

But some vegetarians go over the edge, or are those vegans? This is why I wanted some clarity.

One good thing about this thread is that it has made me realize another argument against vegetarians and pro-life. Thanks.

 

[dextercioby]

Recognize the word vegetable in the word vegetarian?

Nope,but i recognize the word "arian"...

Anyway,it's cheaper to eat meat...

Daniel.

 

[Moonbear]

No I don't

But some vegetarians go over the edge, or are those vegans? This is why I wanted some clarity.

One good thing about this thread is that it has made me realize another argument against vegetarians and pro-life. Thanks.

Vegan means they eat NO animal products at all, which means no egg or dairy either, while vegetarian means they might include some animal proteins (some dairy or egg), though usually in very limited amounts. Some people still call themselves vegetarian even if they eat some fish, so the term does get confusing.

 

[jcsd]

Meat is essential as it provides vital trace elements to the part of your brain that tells you tie-dye isn't cool.

 

[hypnagogue]

Zing! character limit filler >:(

 

[Monique]

One good thing about this thread is that it has made me realize another argument against vegetarians and pro-life. Thanks.

And that argument would be?

Vegan means they eat NO animal products at all, which means no egg or dairy either, while vegetarian means they might include some animal proteins (some dairy or egg), though usually in very limited amounts. Some people still call themselves vegetarian even if they eat some fish, so the term does get confusing.

I think it is more of a life style than a dictionary definition, at least it can be. I stopped eating meat, but I would not call myself a hardcore vegetarian. If my parents serve me a dish with meat, I'd still eat it mainly because I don't think it's a sin to eat meat and probably also that I'm still used to eating meat.

You stop smoking because it's bad for you, but it should be ok to have a sigarette at a party once in a while (as long as you don't go back into the old habit).

 

[mattmns]

And that argument would be?

Woops I wrote that a bit unclear. The argument is for all those people who say that if you are pro-life (anti-abortion as far as I am concerned), you can not eat meat (because pro life includes animals). The argument (or I guess point) is that if you are pro life (by their definition) you must not eat animals, plants, or anything that contains any form of life in it. This may not make sense because that is what I just said; however, when someone told me this they said vegetarian. So now if someone says that if you are pro life you should also be a vegetarian, I can tell them no, you must a full blown vegan, because pro life means all life. Blah this is turning out complicated, I know what I meant though, so I am ok

Thanks for the clarity Moonbear.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

I understand several of the reasons that people choose to not eat meat. Health, it has a face, agro-economics, the animals humane treatment, etc...But what I don't understand is why those that choose that particular lifestyle choose to be the initiators of what they know will become an argument when they confront those that think differently. It kind of seems like religious people knocking on your door to spread their word and then becoming aggressive when you say "No" and try to close the door. Each has a choice. I have family members that are attempting a Vegan lifestyle and have come to accept them for what they are. I don't like it but I love them and admire their moral standing. 4-H and FFA taught me to care for my livestock and to respect what they provide. It's unfortunate that animals wiggle when being slaughtered but you can't take part of a cow and let it walk around until you need more...or can you.

 

[Math Is Hard]

BUT there is always Indian restaurants, a vegetarian's heaven

I was recently amazed to see that my favorite Indian restaurant has started serving a beef dish! Apperently the new owners made some changes to the menu!

I know one of the waiters there so I asked him what was up with that. "I know", he said, "I don't like it. I can't even stand the smell of it." I don't think he's going to work there for much longer. I could tell it really bothered him.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Les, "Diet for a Small Planet" contains many inaccurate numbers regarding animal feed requirements. Not the least of which is that humans are even less efficient at converting the energy in grains to muscle mass than are herbivores such as cattle, and one cow feeds a LOT of people.

In my original listing of that as a reference I included a disclaimer about the facts of the book, but then I deleted it feeling the post was getting too long. But as I pointed out, even if it is 8 times, that's significant. Also, I wonder how much long term health costs contribute to the "price" of eating meat.

But I know for a fact that I can live on grains, veggies, beans, nuts and fruits quite nicely (I like to include brewers yeast, the best kept health secret on the planet). In fact large part of the world does that, and always has. I lived on it for eight of the heathiest years of my life. When I met my current wife, she ate cheese so I started back up, but at the expense of dealing with excess mucus, longer digestion times, and some loss in ease of elimination. I still only eat cheese once or twice per week (love pizza too much).

Regarding humans being "less efficient at converting the energy in grains to muscle mass," something I found was that after giving up meat, I seemed able to get by on very little food (besides, once we reach adulthood, why do we need to worry much about building muscle mass?). I remember when I was eating meat three times a day, it seemed like I was really hungry at mealtime, and I would eat lots. A few years later, I was getting by on something like what I have had today: an orange first thing in the morn; a little later my daily cappacino; then two pieces of 100% toasted sprouted bread with cold pressed oil brushed on . . . that sort of is my "morning food." Just now for "afternoon food" I had half an avocado with mustard in the middle, a couple of ounces of baked (not fried ) pototo chips; later afternoon food will probably be a handful of tamari roasted cashews I made last night. For "evening food" I am planning homemade veggie tomato soup with brown rice mixed in; later I might have something sweet like dates or figs, or a little ice cream. That's it! (Except for my brewers yeast and vitamins.)

Now, my friends say I eat like a bird, but I still manage to run circles around them on the racquetball court, and get over any sort of bug I catch a lot faster than they do. I've eaten both ways (meat and not) I know that for me I am much healthier, feel much better, digest food much eaiser, eat much less, and enjoy a greater variety of foods without meat. So the reason for my diet isn't anything "high," it is pure self interest. That's also why I don't think people should be telling others how they should eat; anything I say along those lines to meat eaters is totally good-natured teasing, and they tease me too (geez, I'd be virtually friendless and familyless if I condemned meat eaters). If you like meat, then I say go for it. If not, then that's cool too. It is completely a personal thing (if we leave animal treatment out of it).

 

[Les Sleeth]

. . . what I don't understand is why those that choose that particular lifestyle choose to be the initiators of what they know will become an argument when they confront those that think differently.

I agree! I am amazed at how long the "should we eat meat" thread has gone on. It seems like such a non-issue from a "should" perspective. I can see people sharing their dietary knowledge and so on. But the morality of a diet?

 

[dextercioby]

View Poll Results: I eat meat with a meal
never 3 10.00%
1-2 per week 2 6.67%
3-4 per week 6 20.00%
5-6 per week 8 26.67%
always 11 36.67%
Voters: 30. You have already voted on this poll


Has someone voted twice??Has someone messed up the computer??It's more than 100% when u add them?

Daniel...

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

Woops I wrote that a bit unclear. The argument is for all those people who say that if you are pro-life (anti-abortion as far as I am concerned), you can not eat meat (because pro life includes animals). The argument (or I guess point) is that if you are pro life (by their definition) you must not eat animals, plants, or anything that contains any form of life in it. This may not make sense because that is what I just said; however, when someone told me this they said vegetarian. So now if someone says that if you are pro life you should also be a vegetarian, I can tell them no, you must a full blown vegan, because pro life means all life. Blah this is turning out complicated, I know what I meant though, so I am ok

Thanks for the clarity Moonbear.

Not all vegetarians are pro-life. I am pro-choice because I base my morals on logic, and I believe that being pro-choice is most logical. What has not been incorporated into society has no value to society. I am vegetarian because I believe the slaughtering of animals is unbeneficial to humanity. Meat eating, in addition to being unhealthier than vegetarianism, also deprives humans of what animals can contribute to society.

 

[hypnagogue]

Has someone voted twice??Has someone messed up the computer??It's more than 100% when u add them?

It comes out to 100.01. Probably just round off error.

 

[Monique]

But what I don't understand is why those that choose that particular lifestyle choose to be the initiators of what they know will become an argument when they confront those that think differently.

How often do you get confonted about this issue? For one, no one forced you to enter this discussion I don't think it's a bad thing to engage in discussions.

 

[Les Sleeth]

How often do you get confonted about this issue? For one, no one forced you to enter this discussion I don't think it's a bad thing to engage in discussions.

Monique, I at least wasn't being critical of your thread concept when I agreed with Echo6. I thought he was referring to some of the animal rights people who think they have a right to force their views about eating animals. I totally agree about kindness to animals destined for slaughter, but I disagree that anyone should moralize about eating meat.

 

[Monique]

I know I too think everyone is responsible for their own health. But at the same time no one should ignore the fact that the quality live of livestock should be inspected.

 

[mattmns]

Not all vegetarians are pro-life.

The argument is for all those people who say that if you are pro-life (anti-abortion as far as I am concerned), you can not eat meat (because pro life includes animals).

I am not saying it that way. I am saying it the other way around. Also, I do not agree with people who say that if you are pro-life you should not eat meat. You took this the wrong way. The reason I said this was because of a conversation I had with someone a while back about abortion (being pro-life) and vegetarians. She said that if you were pro-life you should also be a vegetarian. I disagreed with this, but could only come up with a definition of pro-life argument. Now if we talk about this again and she brings up that same point, I can say that well you should not eat any form of life at all (ie. plants, things that grow, etc). I do not believe this, but I think it is a decent counter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes I almost forgot, as for the energy efficiency of plants over meat, easy fix,two words: Soylent Green.

 

[JasonRox]

and I think restaurants should be cathering more towards vegetarians.. often there is not a single dish on the menu vegetarian.. what's that all about?

Hmm... there's a lot more then there used to be.

So, yes THEY ARE leaning towards vegetarian meals.

 

[Moonbear]

Les, I really don't know how you function on that diet! I'd be half starved if that's all I ate, and I'm a small person. My morning food looks pretty similar to yours, except any whole grain bread will do for the toast (no sprouted whatever that was), and I add a little sliced cheese or butter (I do like a good crusty bread dipped in olive oil, but not for breakfast), and its regular coffee with milk, and I add a glass of orange juice or a banana if I'm really hungry. Lunch, when I'm being good is a half sandwich or a salad...if I get salad, I include some cottage cheese or a hard boiled egg and some sunflower seeds or nuts (when I'm not being good, I get something like lasagna or chicken breast from the cafeteria). Dinner then has a big helping of veggies (either in salad form or cooked...either way works for me): I love veggies of all kinds, but often resort to the easy to cook things found in the freezer section like peas or broccoli (yes, Ivan, I always have plenty of frozen broccoli in the freezer here in case you're ever stranded in Ohio), something with carbs in it: a small potato, rice, pasta, or yams, and then I have a little meat. A small piece of chocolate is dessert if I eat dessert, but usually don't even have sweets in the house except around holidays. Sometimes I indulge and make some popcorn as a late night snack (popped in a pot on the stove, not microwaved stuff). I like it with butter and salt, but it doesn't really need it when it's real popcorn popped on the stove. I just find if I don't have that little bit of meat or some cheese, I feel half-starved and end up eating everything else in sight. That little bit of animal protein and fat goes a long way for me. But it's probably about balance, because if I sat down and ate a lot of meat (like when you go out to a steakhouse and they bring you half the cow and a baked potato as a dinner) and don't get my veggies, I also end up feeling hungry later that night no matter how stuffed I was at dinner. I don't think our two diets are really all that different, but you're getting the fat in the avocado and ice cream, and I'm getting it from the meat or cheese. I like avocados too, and have been known to make a dinner out of avocado and tortilla chips (it's one of the few fruits with enough fat in it that I can substitute it for meat and feel pretty good), though, mustard? I like my avocados plain, or with a tablespoon of salsa mixed in (pseudo-guacamole).

Ooh, that reminded me of one of my favorite summer time lunches! Grill a portabello mushroom and put it on some toasted bread, add some sliced avocado, and drizzle on a bit of salad dressing. Yummy!

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

How often do you get confonted about this issue?

Every time I eat meat in front of them or wind up preparing food for them and they give me "stink eye" for attempting to prepare their food in a vessel that I previously used for animal protein.

For one, no one forced you to enter this discussion .

Ouch! That kinda hurt. It's unfortunate that I don't emote well in type, otherwise you would have known that I wasn't trying to be a wanker about what I was attempting to get across. I meant no offense...except to those stinkin', non-bathin', bark-eatin', patchoulie(sp) wearin', holier-than-thou, wanna-b-hippies who preach peace, love, and acceptance while yelling at me as I drive through McDonalds that I am ruining the planet by eating meat. It took me a really long time to find out that you can't force someone to learn, you can only present ideas to them and allow them to make their own decisions and/or you can provide an environment that allows them to see the choices they have and leave it at that. Me, I love to learn new things, but not by the means of being scolded by someone who has good initiative yet lacks the judgement to temper the way they present their ideas.

I don't think it's a bad thing to engage in discussions.

Yes, you're right, but this seems like too volatile a subject to actually discuss without anyone getting their feelings upset over what the other has to say. People hear but they don't listen.

 

[Moonbear]

Every time I eat meat in front of them or wind up preparing food for them and they give me "stink eye" for attempting to prepare their food in a vessel that I previously used for animal protein.

First, stink eye? I've never heard that expression before, but I like it.

That one always gets me. One of my friends is married to a guy like that. Well, she's taught him to be better behaved about it when eating in other people's homes, but he apparently was giving his mother-in-law the evil eye (or is that the stink eye) when she visited them because she used his pots and pans to cook meat! I don't care that he's vegan, and we don't live anywhere near each other, so it's not like there are frequent issues of inviting each other over for dinner to contend with, but I thought that was a bit too far to be fearing having meat touch your cookware!

 

[Les Sleeth]

Les, I really don't know how you function on that diet! I'd be half starved if that's all I ate, and I'm a small person.

I'd meant to include I have this theory that eating meat requires more energy (for digestion) than not eating it. So once you stop eating meat, your overall need for calories drops. (Just a little note. From your pic, I thought you were a big, strong, beautiful voluputous Germanic type :!). So you are a petite beauty?)

I like avocados too . . . though, mustard?

HEY! Watch it there bioguru, you are dissing one of my all-time favorite treats. But really, cut an avocado in half, put mustard (French's Brown) in the hole after you remove the seed, get your favorite spoon, and try it with the potato chips. I bet you like it.

Ooh, that reminded me of one of my favorite summer time lunches! Grill a portabello mushroom and put it on some toasted bread, add some sliced avocado, and drizzle on a bit of salad dressing. Yummy!

Mmmmm, now your talking. I have friends who love the portabello pizza version of that sandwich.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Every time I eat meat in front of them or wind up preparing food for them and they give me "stink eye" for attempting to prepare their food in a vessel that I previously used for animal protein.

Duuuuuhhhhhhh . . . MOLECULES! This is a science site isn't? Don't be underestimating the toxic potential of meat molecules.

I meant no offense...except to those stinkin', non-bathin', bark-eatin', patchoulie(sp) wearin', holier-than-thou, wanna-b-hippies who preach peace, love, and acceptance while yelling at me as I drive through McDonalds that I am ruining the planet by eating meat.

Good one. God I hate patchoulie. I hated it the first time I smelled it, so it isn't just from being a former hippie. That stuff doesn't smell like anything natural I've experienced. I do like musk though (another hippie fav). It's still my favorite scent when worn subtly.

 

[Moonbear]

I'd meant to include I have this theory that eating meat requires more energy (for digestion) than not eating it. So once you stop eating meat, your overall need for calories drops. (Just a little note. From your pic, I thought you were a big, strong, beautiful voluputous Germanic type :!). So you are a petite beauty?)

LOL! I'm petite and strong. I'm only 5'2" and 125 lbs. I surprise people by how strong I am because they look at me and expect me to be a bit of a wimp given my small size.

HEY! Watch it there bioguru, you are dissing one of my all-time favorite treats. But really, cut an avocado in half, put mustard (French's Brown) in the hole after you remove the seed, get your favorite spoon, and try it with the potato chips. I bet you like it.

That sounds like a lot of mustard to me. At least it's brown mustard. If you said yellow mustard, I'd have had to stop talking to you. Hmm, I have this really tasty honey mustard, maybe that would work??

 

[Les Sleeth]

LOL! I'm petite . . . I'm only 5'2" and 125 lbs.

Hey, maybe you should eat more meat. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr., arrrf, bow wow, rrrrrrrrufff.

That sounds like a lot of mustard to me. At least it's brown mustard. If you said yellow mustard, I'd have had to stop talking to you. Hmm, I have this really tasty honey mustard, maybe that would work??

True, it's not for the faint of heart. It's like mustard guacamole, except the mustard is just on the outside, and the chips are potato instead of corn. I've tried mushing it up like one does for salsa/avo real guacamole, but it doesn't work. The best is to eat chunks of avo with a spoon dipped in the mustard. Of course, (in the words of our esteemed governor) if you are going to be a girly [wo]man, then forget it!

 

[tribdog]

Stop me if I've already told my vegetarian story,
I was in Flagstaff and there was a protest in front of city hall. Banner said "Vegetarians make better lovers" and two people in their underwear were making out on a matress. there was a bunch of news cameras there, so I went to a hot dog stand, bought a Chicago Dog and watched the free porn show while I ate my meaty lunch. got interviewed a couple of times and I think my interview portion took up more time in the news report than the rest of the protest coverage combined