Microsoft's Sleazy Tactics: What Windows Users Need to Know

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Microsoft's practices regarding Windows updates and user agreements, particularly in the context of perceived sleazy tactics and their implications for users. Participants express their opinions on Windows 10 and the upcoming Windows 11, while also touching on broader themes of copyright, intellectual property, and user autonomy.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express frustration with Microsoft's handling of user agreements and updates, suggesting that the company is overstepping by controlling user rights.
  • Others highlight the historical context of copyright and intellectual property, arguing that wealthy nations benefited from lax enforcement in the past and are now imposing unfair restrictions on developing countries.
  • A participant shares a personal experience with Microsoft support, indicating dissatisfaction with Windows 10's compatibility and performance.
  • Concerns are raised about automatic updates potentially disrupting important work, with participants questioning the transparency of user agreements.
  • Some participants propose that developing countries should have free access to technology until they can compete fairly, while others seek clarification on this viewpoint.
  • There is a mention of the economic implications of Microsoft's practices, suggesting that the company profits from the consequences of its policies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express disagreement on the implications of Microsoft's practices, with multiple competing views on copyright enforcement and user autonomy. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the fairness of Microsoft's approach and its impact on users and developing countries.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific sections of Microsoft's user agreements and historical contexts without reaching a consensus on their interpretations or implications. The discussion includes personal anecdotes that highlight individual experiences with Microsoft's products and services.

  • #31
Student100 said:
Don't like windows? Go Linux.
Linux is not for the faint of heart. Unless things have changed dramatically, you got to do it all yourself, and they're notorious for not documenting stuff.This is the 21st century. We should be able to operate computers without having to moonlight as an IT.

I guess that's the niche that tablets have filled.
 
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  • #32
Maybe a better idea then to partition the drive and install Linux in one of the partitions. I need to figure out how to do it. Or maybe running it in a virtual machine, don't know either how to set it up. I got a good amount of 'book-learnin' without much actual experience.
 
  • #33
Student100 said:
are less configurable.
To many, this is a plus, not a negative.

I should not have to call tech support just to get my network printer to talk to my computer. It's a computer - it's smarter than me about these things. It should find my printer for me! (And, what's more, it shouldn't forget about my printer every time I just look at it funny.)
 
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  • #34
DaveC426913 said:
Linux is not for the faint of heart. Unless things have changed dramatically, you got to do it all yourself, and they're notorious for not documenting stuff.This is the 21st century. We should be able to operate computers without having to moonlight as an IT.

I guess that's the niche that tablets have filled.

I haven't ever felt like I was moonlighting as an IT, I guess it depends on someones computer literacy. Owning a windowsPC or linuxPC isn't hard.

Maybe a better idea then to partition the drive and install Linux in one of the partitions. I need to figure out how to do it.

You can start off doing dual boot machines. That way you keep your old OS.

To many, this is a plus, not a negative.

I don't understand how, it's silly not having basic external connections without buying some proprietary converter..etc.
 
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  • #35
Student100 said:
I haven't ever felt like I was moonlighting as an IT
Of course not. To those who know how, it's easy.

But imagine having to set the timing belt on your car every time you gas it up. It's easy for a mechanically-minded person, but to most, a car is a tool, not a hobby.
 
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  • #36
Student100 said:
I haven't ever felt like I was moonlighting as an IT, I guess it depends on someones computer literacy. Owning a windowsPC or linuxPC isn't hard.
<Snip>
.
Seems like a step back technologically to have to know the inner-workings of a machine before using it. One can use cars, tvs, cell-phones, etc. without understanding their inner workings. Windows/PCs have broken the pattern. EDIT: don't get me wrong, I would love to understand the inner workings of everything I use, but under modern lifestyle, it does not seem like a reasonable option.
 
  • #37
WWGD said:
Seems like a step back technologically to have to know the inner-workings of a machine before using it. One can use cars, tvs, cell-phones, etc. without understanding their inner workings.
Exactly. It was great in the latter half of the 20th century, when it was a fresh, new frontier and only those with the tenacity to chase down hacks could really have a lot of fun with it (I was one of them). But I've moved on to other things - computers are a tool for me to do other things I'm interested in, and I'd rather spend my time doing those things than setting the timing belt on my PC every time I gas up.

A given technology becomes commonplace - invisible - after it grows out of its childhood. It becomes a commodity - a tool.

Mac gets this.
 
  • #38
Linux has come a long way.
I remember Ubuntu 5.04 or something around that time.
I never got my printer working on that box. Sound drivers were another issue.

Going by things I heard from friends those issues are resolved.
The girl in the dorm room neighbouring mine got her surround system working without problems (plug 'n play)

Granted there is a big disadvantage to linux for the average person, the community is missing some software.
You can make do with libreOffice or the like. But it doesn't compare to MS office at the moment.
What I'm missing are my games. Slowly the linux community is getting some native games though (steam).

Fact is that for people that are fed up with windows, the alternative exists.
The learning curve is smaller than ever (in fact switching OS always comes with a bit of a learning curve).
And most everyday hardware works out of the box.
 
  • #39
I think migrating such a large amount of people to Linux and having them learn bash is not practical. You basically have to be a computer scientist to be able to swallow Linux, and it's not really for the average person. People love the simplicity of being able to click on folders easily, and all the magic happens automatically.

Plus all the software.

I really hope it doesn't come to that.
 
  • #40
You haven't used linux in a while I see.
You can do the pointy-clicky thingy if you want.

In OpenSUSE you have YaST and a one-click install capability for software.
In Ubuntu you have the software center.

Advantage: You can search the official website/repositories so you can be quite certain it is safe (there's always a small chance)

For regular usage software GUIs are available.

I'm not saying everyone has to switch, it is however a viable option for most if not all users I know.
 
  • #41
Zondrina said:
I think migrating such a large amount of people to Linux and having them learn bash is not practical. You basically have to be a computer scientist to be able to swallow Linux, and it's not really for the average person. People love the simplicity of being able to click on folders easily, and all the magic happens automatically.

Plus all the software.

I really hope it doesn't come to that.

Total nonsense. There are many distributions of linux that are totally GUI driven and don't require any use of the command line. Plus, your assertion that you need to use bash highlights your ignorance of the operating system - there are many different shells a user can choose from, bash being one of the more popular.

I, and thousands of other people, are building a PhD soley on the use of linux and free software. I think our needs are a bit more advanced than what 99% of people use computers for. If it's good enough for us it's good enough for your grandma to look at pictures of the grandkids on facebook.
 
  • #42
I know, it's disgusting. I just use Linux, and Windows 7 only when I absolutely have to (computer games), it's much faster anyway.

Of course, that's sadly not an option for people who bought a computer with Windows 10 OEM, where the hardware is configured to effectively lock the user out from the level of access they would need to install a new OS. Or given the lobbying that Microsoft and some others have done against free/open-source software.
 
  • #43
jack476 said:
I know, it's disgusting. I just use Linux, and Windows 7 only when I absolutely have to (computer games), it's much faster anyway.

Of course, that's sadly not an option for people who bought a computer with Windows 10 OEM, where the hardware is configured to effectively lock the user out from the level of access they would need to install a new OS. Or given the lobbying that Microsoft and some others have done against free/open-source software.
You just refuse to understand, listen to reason: Bill Gates has _only_ $55 billion in his bank account. Wouldn't _you_ do anything to increase that pittance of a bank account yourself?
 
  • #44
dipole said:
I, and thousands of other people, are building a PhD soley on the use of linux and free software. I think our needs are a bit more advanced than what 99% of people use computers for. If it's good enough for us it's good enough for your grandma to look at pictures of the grandkids on facebook.
Unless I am misinterpreting this paragraph, you seem to have missed the point entirely.

There's no doubt that Linux is advanced enough for your needs to build a PhD, the issue is that it is not simple enough for a non-technical person to use unless someone who is computer-knowledgeable sets it up and maintains it.
 
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  • #45
I'm sure if we asked average university students to try and install Linux on a computer, we would get a lot of 'huh?' responses.

There are quite a few uneducated people as well.
 
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  • #46
You'd get the same response if you asked them to install windows or OSX just the same.

People are generally not qualified to even use a computer for anything else than browsing facebook and doing basic things in word and excel.
 
  • #47
JorisL said:
You'd get the same response if you asked them to install windows or OSX just the same.

People are generally not qualified to even use a computer for anything else than browsing facebook and doing basic things in word and excel.

But the point is that non-experts should be able to use computers, just like can use (drive) cars, use (watch) TVs , etc. and the fact that they are not reflects poorly on the design of the PC.
 
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  • #48
Linux is no longer expert-only.

With the same amount of "training" you received when learning to use windows/OSX you can perfectly use Ubuntu or openSUSE.
 
  • #49
DaveC426913 said:
Unless I am misinterpreting this paragraph, you seem to have missed the point entirely.

There's no doubt that Linux is advanced enough for your needs to build a PhD, the issue is that it is not simple enough for a non-technical person to use unless someone who is computer-knowledgeable sets it up and maintains it.

I was referring to the "Plus all the software" remark, which I interpreted as meaning linux is somehow bereft of useful software. My point is that if linux can be used for complex tasks, it certainly can be used for the ordinary user's tasks. Sorry that was unclear of me.

Also, the only reason people find linux confusing is that they learned windows first. Having gotten very used to linux, I find windows confusing and difficult to use at times. There's nothing inherently difficult about linux.
 
  • #50
WWGD said:
People ought to know too, that, with very few exceptions, the now-rich countries did not respect copyright nor intellectual properties in their respective earlier days, yet now expect everyone to follow them, at a high cot to developing countries, a cost the rich countries ever had to pay.

This doesn't sound right to me. Can you provide a reference supporting/explaining this in more detail?

WWGD said:
But the point is that non-experts should be able to use computers, just like can use (drive) cars, use (watch) TVs , etc. and the fact that they are not reflects poorly on the design of the PC.

I don't quite agree. A car has a handful of controls and is designed to perform a single task. A basic TV also has just a few controls (volume up/down, channel up/down, power on/off) and is designed to perform a single task. Hence why so many people have or have had issues figuring out how to work their new cable or satellite TV. A PC has the potential to perform many, many different tasks, using whatever software is designed for said task. It's like comparing a car to a car/plane/boat/backhoe/tank combo that also dices. I can drive a car just fine. I can't drive a tank that turns into a plane and makes milkshakes. Not very well at least.

I don't think PC's are poorly designed, I think it's that Mac's are a little simpler and more intuitive to use in general, as well as being more focused on making the average person want to use them. However they are also less flexible and more expensive. Hence why they haven't dominated over PC's.
 
  • #51
Drakkith said:
This doesn't sound right to me. Can you provide a reference supporting/explaining this in more detail?
I assume by "right" you mean "correct"? I don't even care if it is correct or not (though I agree with you: probably not): it still isn't Right to advocate breaking the law based on other people doing it too. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong, regardless of whether other people are doing it too. That's morality/ethics 101 stuff.
 
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  • #53
Drakkith said:
I can't drive a tank that turns into a plane and makes milkshakes. Not very well at least.

This was funny and made my morning a little brighter. I'm also craving the transformer experience now.

JorisL said:
You'd get the same response if you asked them to install windows or OSX just the same.

Probably, but the majority of user purchased machines come with Windows/OSX pre-installed; so usually there is no issue with the setup. Most people can happily click the 'on' button, and proceed with whatever they were doing.

I think if we asked someone who was not very tech savvy to find and install a copy of Linux right now, I'm sure they would be particularly lost. There's so many versions of Linux, and people aren't usually educated when it comes to setting up a Linux kernel from scratch.

At least with Windows/OSX, they give you a nice setup CD that takes away a lot of the overhead.
 
  • #54
DaveC426913 said:
To many, this is a plus, not a negative.

I should not have to call tech support just to get my network printer to talk to my computer. It's a computer - it's smarter than me about these things. It should find my printer for me! (And, what's more, it shouldn't forget about my printer every time I just look at it funny.)

Completely agreed (with this and the rest of the conversation). I have a few very IT literate friends who love to muck around with their computers and have snarky views on regular people who have issues doing simple tasks. Sorry but most people want to learn the least amount possible to use a tool and that's perfectly reasonable. Tablets and phones seem to have understood this, toddlers learn how to use iPads in no time at all because their simple and intuitive. That's the direction I hope computer software design heads towards.
 
  • #55
All reasons you give remain the same for people trying to install a game.
How to install steam? If you don't know you google it.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=install linux

First result (for me) shows how to use a live CD (god bless those)
Second result is a big guide from lifehacker with links that should get you rolling in maximum 2 hours.

Ryan_m_b said:
Completely agreed (with this and the rest of the conversation). I have a few very IT literate friends who love to muck around with their computers and have snarky views on regular people who have issues doing simple tasks. Sorry but most people want to learn the least amount possible to use a tool and that's perfectly reasonable. Tablets and phones seem to have understood this, toddlers learn how to use iPads in no time at all because their simple and intuitive. That's the direction I hope computer software design heads towards.

I hope not. I wouldn't like to be the employer of someone that knows the absolute minimum to function.
This means that whenever something unexpected comes up (rounding error in excel for example) (s)he would have to call tech support for a trivial thing.
Why not use google and a little bit of common sense (rounding errors might be a little extreme so say he/she wanted a particular graph but doesn't know how -> call IT)?

People should learn to use google/bing/whatever to do their bidding. We have all information we could possibly need available at the tips of our fingers.
 
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  • #56
JorisL said:
I hope not. I wouldn't like to be the employer of someone that knows the absolute minimum to function.

That's not what I meant, I said that people want to learn the minimum amount possible to use a tool, not that they want to learn only the minimum of how to use the tool. To put it more simply I would rather only have to take 5 hours of study to learn how to use a tool fully than 10. If that can be accomplished by designing better software/interface for it that's excellent.
 
  • #57
Drakkith said:
This doesn't sound right to me. Can you provide a reference supporting/explaining this in more detail?
I don't quite agree. A car has a handful of controls and is designed to perform a single task. A basic TV also has just a few controls (volume up/down, channel up/down, power on/off) and is designed to perform a single task. Hence why so many people have or have had issues figuring out how to work their new cable or satellite TV. A PC has the potential to perform many, many different tasks, using whatever software is designed for said task. It's like comparing a car to a car/plane/boat/backhoe/tank combo that also dices. I can drive a car just fine. I can't drive a tank that turns into a plane and makes milkshakes. Not very well at least.

I don't think PC's are poorly designed, I think it's that Mac's are a little simpler and more intuitive to use in general, as well as being more focused on making the average person want to use them. However they are also less flexible and more expensive. Hence why they haven't dominated over PC's.

For references:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1501245635/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.cuil.pt/r.php?cx=002825717068136152164:qf0jmwd8jku&cof=FORID:10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bad+samaritans+book&sa=Search

EDIT:This gives an unfair advantage to those who did not have to wait and pay and makes it technically and economically prohibitive to those who are now expected to pay --and wait. . Ditto for environmental controls, Use of slave labor , Respect for human rights, which now-rich countries did not have to live by when developing their industries (of course I don't advocate that all environmental controls, nor (any reasonable) human rights be dropped, nor that slave labor be used. But it is easier to find your way and build yourself up while having much fewer restrictions ).

And Re PC's , you do have a point but PCs have troubles with basic word processing and the issue that master Bill decides o change the interface periodically does not help. Nor that the layout/design of the PC is based more on marketing research than in effective interface research. I am pretty sure some engineers at minisoft are upset, yet enjoying the free shares.
 
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  • #58
JorisL said:
<Snip>

People should learn to use google/bing/whatever to do their bidding. We have all information we could possibly need available at the tips of our fingers.

True, but clouded by plenty of noise. Good luck filtering through the trash in order to get to get to the good ( or even true ) stuff. I would say plenty of data, little information (information meant in the classical sense of reducing uncertainty)
 
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  • #59
WWGD said:
For references:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1501245635/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.cuil.pt/r.php?cx=002825717068136152164:qf0jmwd8jku&cof=FORID:10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bad+samaritans+book&sa=Search

EDIT:This gives an unfair advantage to those who did not have to wait and pay and makes it technically and economically prohibitive to those who are now expected to pay --and wait. . Ditto for environmental controls, Use of slave labor , Respect for human rights, which now-rich countries did not have to live by when developing their industries (of course I don't advocate that all environmental controls, nor (any reasonable) human rights be dropped, nor that slave labor be used. But it is easier to find your way and build yourself up while having much fewer restrictions ).

Given the enormous complexity of economics and the criticisms against the book, I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take your stance on this issue. In any case, I think this is an issue for another thread so I won't argue it here.
 
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  • #60
JorisL said:
People should learn to use google/bing/whatever to do their bidding. We have all information we could possibly need available at the tips of our fingers.
Sure, sure - "It's the customer's problem" certainly was the mentality - back in the day, but today there's no excuse.

A mainstream consumer device that needs a manual to operate it is a badly engineered device, especially when it has 30-40 years of engineering R&D behind it.
Apple has figured this out.
 
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