Microsoft's Sleazy Tactics: What Windows Users Need to Know

[russ_watters]

This doesn't sound right to me. Can you provide a reference supporting/explaining this in more detail?

I assume by "right" you mean "correct"? I don't even care if it is correct or not (though I agree with you: probably not): it still isn't Right to advocate breaking the law based on other people doing it too. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong, regardless of whether other people are doing it too. That's morality/ethics 101 stuff.

 

[dlgoff]

Worse comes to worse, my solution might be,

... dual-boot of Windows 7 and Linux Mint 17 ...

http://thpc.info/dual/7/db_mint17_bcd_on_win7.html

 

[STEMucator]

I can't drive a tank that turns into a plane and makes milkshakes. Not very well at least.

This was funny and made my morning a little brighter. I'm also craving the transformer experience now.

You'd get the same response if you asked them to install windows or OSX just the same.

Probably, but the majority of user purchased machines come with Windows/OSX pre-installed; so usually there is no issue with the setup. Most people can happily click the 'on' button, and proceed with whatever they were doing.

I think if we asked someone who was not very tech savvy to find and install a copy of Linux right now, I'm sure they would be particularly lost. There's so many versions of Linux, and people aren't usually educated when it comes to setting up a Linux kernel from scratch.

At least with Windows/OSX, they give you a nice setup CD that takes away a lot of the overhead.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

To many, this is a plus, not a negative.

I should not have to call tech support just to get my network printer to talk to my computer. It's a computer - it's smarter than me about these things. It should find my printer for me! (And, what's more, it shouldn't forget about my printer every time I just look at it funny.)

Completely agreed (with this and the rest of the conversation). I have a few very IT literate friends who love to muck around with their computers and have snarky views on regular people who have issues doing simple tasks. Sorry but most people want to learn the least amount possible to use a tool and that's perfectly reasonable. Tablets and phones seem to have understood this, toddlers learn how to use iPads in no time at all because their simple and intuitive. That's the direction I hope computer software design heads towards.

 

[JorisL]

All reasons you give remain the same for people trying to install a game.
How to install steam? If you don't know you google it.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=install linux

First result (for me) shows how to use a live CD (god bless those)
Second result is a big guide from lifehacker with links that should get you rolling in maximum 2 hours.

Completely agreed (with this and the rest of the conversation). I have a few very IT literate friends who love to muck around with their computers and have snarky views on regular people who have issues doing simple tasks. Sorry but most people want to learn the least amount possible to use a tool and that's perfectly reasonable. Tablets and phones seem to have understood this, toddlers learn how to use iPads in no time at all because their simple and intuitive. That's the direction I hope computer software design heads towards.

I hope not. I wouldn't like to be the employer of someone that knows the absolute minimum to function.
This means that whenever something unexpected comes up (rounding error in excel for example) (s)he would have to call tech support for a trivial thing.
Why not use google and a little bit of common sense (rounding errors might be a little extreme so say he/she wanted a particular graph but doesn't know how -> call IT)?

People should learn to use google/bing/whatever to do their bidding. We have all information we could possibly need available at the tips of our fingers.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I hope not. I wouldn't like to be the employer of someone that knows the absolute minimum to function.

That's not what I meant, I said that people want to learn the minimum amount possible to use a tool, not that they want to learn only the minimum of how to use the tool. To put it more simply I would rather only have to take 5 hours of study to learn how to use a tool fully than 10. If that can be accomplished by designing better software/interface for it that's excellent.

 

[WWGD]

This doesn't sound right to me. Can you provide a reference supporting/explaining this in more detail?
I don't quite agree. A car has a handful of controls and is designed to perform a single task. A basic TV also has just a few controls (volume up/down, channel up/down, power on/off) and is designed to perform a single task. Hence why so many people have or have had issues figuring out how to work their new cable or satellite TV. A PC has the potential to perform many, many different tasks, using whatever software is designed for said task. It's like comparing a car to a car/plane/boat/backhoe/tank combo that also dices. I can drive a car just fine. I can't drive a tank that turns into a plane and makes milkshakes. Not very well at least.

I don't think PC's are poorly designed, I think it's that Mac's are a little simpler and more intuitive to use in general, as well as being more focused on making the average person want to use them. However they are also less flexible and more expensive. Hence why they haven't dominated over PC's.

For references:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1501245635/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.cuil.pt/r.php?cx=002825717068136152164:qf0jmwd8jku&cof=FORID:10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bad+samaritans+book&sa=Search

EDIT:This gives an unfair advantage to those who did not have to wait and pay and makes it technically and economically prohibitive to those who are now expected to pay --and wait. . Ditto for environmental controls, Use of slave labor , Respect for human rights, which now-rich countries did not have to live by when developing their industries (of course I don't advocate that all environmental controls, nor (any reasonable) human rights be dropped, nor that slave labor be used. But it is easier to find your way and build yourself up while having much fewer restrictions ).

And Re PC's , you do have a point but PCs have troubles with basic word processing and the issue that master Bill decides o change the interface periodically does not help. Nor that the layout/design of the PC is based more on marketing research than in effective interface research. I am pretty sure some engineers at minisoft are upset, yet enjoying the free shares.

 

[WWGD]

<Snip>

People should learn to use google/bing/whatever to do their bidding. We have all information we could possibly need available at the tips of our fingers.

True, but clouded by plenty of noise. Good luck filtering through the trash in order to get to get to the good ( or even true ) stuff. I would say plenty of data, little information (information meant in the classical sense of reducing uncertainty)

 

[Drakkith]

For references:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1501245635/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.cuil.pt/r.php?cx=002825717068136152164:qf0jmwd8jku&cof=FORID:10&ie=UTF-8&q=Bad+samaritans+book&sa=Search

EDIT:This gives an unfair advantage to those who did not have to wait and pay and makes it technically and economically prohibitive to those who are now expected to pay --and wait. . Ditto for environmental controls, Use of slave labor , Respect for human rights, which now-rich countries did not have to live by when developing their industries (of course I don't advocate that all environmental controls, nor (any reasonable) human rights be dropped, nor that slave labor be used. But it is easier to find your way and build yourself up while having much fewer restrictions ).

Given the enormous complexity of economics and the criticisms against the book, I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take your stance on this issue. In any case, I think this is an issue for another thread so I won't argue it here.

 

[DaveC426913]

People should learn to use google/bing/whatever to do their bidding. We have all information we could possibly need available at the tips of our fingers.

Sure, sure - "It's the customer's problem" certainly was the mentality - back in the day, but today there's no excuse.

A mainstream consumer device that needs a manual to operate it is a badly engineered device, especially when it has 30-40 years of engineering R&D behind it.
Apple has figured this out.

 

[JorisL]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

My stance on this can be illustrated by the proverb

"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

That's how I approach "skill" in technology and everyday life.
I'm not saying you should be able to install linux from source.
But too many people have to rely on stores to fix something simple (and well-documented) like removing a virus.

I wouldn't expect someone to troubleshoot when his washer gives a certain error code.
But a simple restart should be the least they can think of. Most of the time this doesn't happen.
"Lets call a technician" is the simple solution but it costs money and time (both yours and his).

In the world I would like to live in, people show some curiosity.
Extreme examples are people that can't even change a flat tire next to the highway.
Or people that blindly follow their GPS device and drive into a lake. (A while back some guy turned onto a railroad getting stuck on the tracks).

I'm afraid that's what's happening when everything gets dumbed down too much.

/end ranty post

 

[DaveC426913]

I wouldn't expect someone to troubleshoot when his washer gives a certain error code.
Extreme examples are people that can't even change a flat tire next to the highway.

I can only dream of a world so idyllic that my computer needs to be molly-coddled only as often as my washer throws an error code or my car gets a flat.

[Clipart of Paradise]

[link to classic article 'If Microsoft Made Cars']

 

[JorisL]

I can only dream of a world so idyllic that my computer needs to be molly-coddled only as often as my washer throws an error code or my car gets a flat.

[Clipart of Paradise]

Poor you, the last serious issue I had was when I was on windows.

Edit; no I had another when the steam repository had a faulty commit.

 

[Drakkith]

My stance on this can be illustrated by the proverb

"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

I prefer the proverb, "Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime; also teach him how to use commercial fishing equipment and he can keep a thousand people from needing to fish in the first place".

 

[DaveC426913]

Set a man a light, and he's warm for a night.
Set a man alight, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

 

[DaveC426913]

More seriously, yes, it certainly is good for people to learn how to operate something. And you have chosen to.

But they shouldn't have to. They should have a choice. A device meant for domestic use should not require that level of skill. They've been making these things for 40 years.

 

[collinsmark]

There are things that Services Agreement that I find a little disappointing coming from Microsoft. I put together my own computers, each time buying the CPU, motherboard, video card, power supply, memory, case and operating system separately, then assembling it all myself. (Sometimes even Frankensteining parts of my older computers)

So when I read things such as,

"We may automatically check your version of the software and download software updates or configuration changes, including those that prevent you from accessing the Services, playing counterfeit games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices,"​

it makes me a bit nervous. When did Microsoft start authorizing hardware choices? It makes little sense coming from Microsoft: That's the sort of thing that Apple would say.

Then I realized that this Services Agreement also applies to Microsoft's XBox products, and that's probably what this is referring to, not Windows 10. (At least I hope).

Scold Microsoft for this if you like, but I certainly would not use Apple as an example of a company who does better. Apple has been restricting their customers' choices since, well since Apple has been around. Apple requires that you use only the hardware that they tell you to use (if not their own manufactured hardware then their approved hardware, including all their proprietary cables and such) and no other hardware. And they require that you use their hardware the way they tell you to use their hardware. And they require that you enjoy the product in the way that they tell you to enjoy it and no other way.

Now if you own an apple product and you happen to enjoy that product in the way that Apple tells you to enjoy it, then great: then the stars are in alignment and it's a match made in heaven. Win-win.

But C'mon, Apple is an egregious example of a company attempting to restrict how you use its products [and services].

'Everybody watch this episode?
[Edit: Caution: language]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumancentiPad

 

[STEMucator]

I agree collins. I wonder how long its going to take before Apple starts to slip things into their TOS like Microsoft is doing.

"Section 12c: Apple demands to have access to your whole life."

Lol.

 

[dipole]

I agree collins. I wonder how long its going to take before Apple starts to slip things into their TOS like Microsoft is doing.

"Section 12c: Apple demands to have access to your whole life."

Lol.

I think most Apple users would happily oblige. Being in control of your own life is so DIFFICULT. How much easier would it be if Apple did everything for you?

 

[Hornbein]

Can you explain what that means?

Alexander Hamilton started an organization to steal technology from England, particularly automatic weaving, the power loom.

In the 19th century Germany was notorious for faking English goods. Germans and Japanese were widely considered to be lazy.

 

[William White]

There's no reason to pay 10x times as much for a Mac. Don't like windows? Go Linux.

there are plenty of reasons.

what you mean is that YOU have no reason

 

[William White]

I'm afraid that's what's happening when everything gets dumbed down too much.

/end ranty post

Consumer products should be dumbed down - I don't want to waste my life figuring out how to get a machine to do a task that it is desinged to do.

If granny cannot switch on a computer, plug in a camera, print a photo, and skype the grandkids without having to ask how to do it, then the interface is badly designed.

 

[Student100]

there are plenty of reasons.

what you mean is that YOU have no reason

There's still no reason to pay more for less functionality.

Consumer products should be dumbed down - I don't want to waste my life figuring out how to get a machine to do a task that it is desinged to do.

If granny cannot switch on a computer, plug in a camera, print a photo, and skype the grandkids without having to ask how to do it, then the interface is badly designed.

Dumb downed consumer products have led to our throw away culture. If it took a bit of knowledge to operate something it's much easier to repair by the end user because you're forced to learn how to operate something/are able to collect data and do fault isolation easier.

I'm sure granny would still need help if she never operated a computer before. The learning curve between windows and the mac OS isn't that steep.

 

[William White]

There's still no reason to pay more for less functionality.

you don't get it do you?

some people PREFER the functionality of a mac
some people PREFER the functionality of a pcthere are MANY reasons for this, too many, and too tedious to explain to you.

Be happy with what you have got, and stop whinging that others prefer different products.

 

[Student100]

you don't get it do you?

some people PREFER the functionality of a mac
some people PREFER the functionality of a pcthere are MANY reasons for this, too many, and too tedious to explain to you.

Be happy with what you have got, and stop whinging that others prefer different products.

Seriously? Did you feel attacked or threatened by my post?

You didn't actually respond to my points.

 

[William White]

If it took a bit of knowledge to operate something it's much easier to repair by the end user because you're forced to learn how to operate something/are able to collect data and do fault isolation easier..

I don't know how old you are, but that is NOT true.

I remember when I first started to drive. A second hand car cost a few hundred quid. I spent weekends in scrap yards looking for master cylinders, fuel pumps and radiators and weekends fitting the damn things to keep me on the road. By the time the car had done 100,000 miles it was on its knees.

I can't fix my car. It's guaranteed for 6 years against all mechanical problems. It works. I don't want to spend my life learning how to fix the engine. I want it to get me from A-B without breaking down.

Those crappy days of terrible technology are far behind us thank god.

 

[Student100]

I don't know how old you are, but that is NOT true.

I remember when I first started to drive. A second hand car cost a few hundred quid. I spent weekends in scrap yards looking for master cylinders, fuel pumps and radiators and weekends fitting the damn things to keep me on the road. By the time the car had done 100,000 miles it was on its knees.

I can't fix my car. It's guaranteed for 6 years against all mechanical problems. It works. I don't want to spend my life learning how to fix the engine. I want it to get me from A-B without breaking down.

Those crappy days of terrible technology are far behind us thank god.

Having a service plan makes your technology better? I remember when we designed systems for use by the DoD. The idea was to make it "user friendly" and locked down to a point where they'd need to get a field support contract. Great for the company, piss poor for national security since the soldiers who were supposed to "fix" our equipment, couldn't.

Technology wasn't any better, it was a step back.

 

[William White]

Seriously? Did you feel attacked or threatened by my post?

You didn't actually respond to my points.

Why? I don't care what machine you use; any more than I care what clothes you wear.

its just rather pathetic: the PC/MAC debate has been going for 25 odd years, and its the SAME argument.

You come across as somebody that has not once come across this argument before (amazingly because the net is full of them) so you ask the same boring old questions that have been answered a million times before elsewhere.

 

[Student100]

Why? I don't care what machine you use; any more than I care what clothes you wear.

its just rather pathetic: the PC/MAC debate has been going for 25 odd years, and its the SAME argument.

You come across as somebody that has not once come across this argument before (amazingly because the net is full of them) so you ask the same boring old questions that have been answered a million times before elsewhere.

This makes no sense, if my post was wrong we could talk about it in a logical friendly way. Your post doesn't do that and contributed nothing. This post is also another hand wavy, I'm right cause I said so post.

 

[William White]

Having a service plan makes your technology better?

Are you being deliberately stupid?

I don't get given a guarantee because I will need it. I get a guarantee because the vendor knows I will not need it.If you make a car that is likely break down within the first 5 years of service; and be on the scrap heap before 100,000 miles, would you guarantee it and pick up the tab for repairs?

 

[William White]

This makes no sense, if my post was wrong we could talk about it in a logical friendly way. Your post doesn't do that and contributed nothing. This post is also another hand wavy, I'm right cause I said so post.

You are asking the same tedious questions that have been answered a million times before.

there is no right and wrong - you use the machine that is best for you.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Perhaps it's time to drop this line of conversation. Opinions are getting heated and at the end of the day it just boils down to some people wanting a tonne of functionality on their devices and other people wanting less.

Feel free to consider this the friendly warning.

 

[JorisL]

Consumer products should be dumbed down - I don't want to waste my life figuring out how to get a machine to do a task that it is desinged to do.

If granny cannot switch on a computer, plug in a camera, print a photo, and skype the grandkids without having to ask how to do it, then the interface is badly designed.

But granny has to ask grandson to help her out most of the time.
Indeed what a great interface design...

I see the point you and the others are trying to make, but truth be told I don't know of any technology that works this well.
Take facebook, we all agree it's easy to get started on right?

I haven't had the need to create a page but the other day I accidentally saw a small link where it said you could. (don't even remember where)
What if granny wants to make a page for her favourite crochet club? You can be (almost) sure she has to ask for help.

And that's in my opinion why we need at least some learning curve, always.
Its easier to find out about simple stuff than hitting a wall and having to search what you want for the first time.

I would compare it to using the official documentation for programming language X.
You cannot hope to learn the language by reading the docs, reading those requires getting used to. The same holds for all technology albeit to a lesser extent in general.

Other than that I agree with Ryan_m_b and would like to add that we are mostly at a point where both parties have their view of things.
These views are highly subjective in my opinion. So I'll excuse myself from this circular discussion (I will keep reading though)