Mid-latitude Mar's ancient covalent bonded ice?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of ancient ice on Mars, particularly whether it could be covalently bonded and how its density might compare to Earth ice. Participants explore various aspects of Martian ice, including its potential properties, methods of studying it, and implications for geological observations from orbit.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if ancient mid-latitude Martian ice could be covalently bonded and suggests that 1-2 billion year old ice might have greater density than Earth ice, proposing a method to measure this through electrical properties.
  • Another participant argues against the possibility of stable covalent bonds in Martian ice, stating that the LUMO of water is anti-bonding and suggesting that various forms of ice exist under different conditions, but not expecting anything unique in Martian ice.
  • A later reply corrects a previous mention of HOMO to LUMO in the context of bonding in water.
  • Further exploration is suggested regarding the use of a telescope in Mars orbit to study geological features and ice on the surface, questioning the visibility and characteristics of ancient Martian ice.
  • One participant calculates the requirements for achieving 2 mm resolution from a Mars orbital telescope, indicating the impracticality of such a large lens based on the Rayleigh criterion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the bonding nature of Martian ice and its potential uniqueness, with no consensus reached on these points. The feasibility of observational methods from orbit also remains contested.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the dependence on specific conditions such as pressure and temperature for the formation of different ice phases, and the discussion includes unresolved assumptions about the properties of Martian ice.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in planetary science, astrobiology, and the geological study of Mars may find this discussion relevant.

cph
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Might ancient mid-latitude Mar's ice be covalently bonded? Would 1-2 billion year old ice have much greater density then, compared to Earth ice? So drilling into Mars' ice, compared to drilling into Earth ice, and measure relative difference in voltage/ampere as a proxy for relative density. Could one bring back a cube of Mars ice, without melting? Also wouldn't such guessed at Mars ice sink in water? Would it super cool your drink?
 
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No, because there's no stable covalent bond to be formed. The HOMO of water is anti-bonding.

Depending on pressure and temperature conditions, you can have different forms of ice; we already know of at least a dozen different phases of ice.
But I don't think that we're going to find anything new or unique in martian ice, because the conditions on Mars aren't very exotic compared to what can be achived in the lab.
 
Whoops, wrote HOMO, meant LUMO.
 
cph said:
Might ancient mid-latitude Mar's ice be covalently bonded? Would 1-2 billion year old ice have much greater density then, compared to Earth ice? So drilling into Mars' ice, compared to drilling into Earth ice, and measure relative difference in voltage/ampere as a proxy for relative density. Could one bring back a cube of Mars ice, without melting? Also wouldn't such guessed at Mars rock ice sink in water? Would it super cool your drink?

Re: Mars' orbital telescope and ice rock
Originally Posted by cph View Post

Might one place a telescope in Mars orbit, in order to obtain 2 mm resolution, looking for closeup geological views; such as mars' stromatolytic fossils, or mars' ice (rock) on the surface, in form of a smooth surface that seems a bit odd? Might billions year old Mars' ice be opaque to light, and take on the appearance of rock, but very light weight rock? So is there mars' ice rock on the surface? Do any of the Mars meteroites on Earth have in part Mars rock ice?

As noted 2 mm resolution (that of a field geologist) would be better. Also placing a Moon orbiter (rover-like) with a telescope, looking for Moon rock ice etc. For example, what appears to be a rock effacement, might continue into mottled appearance for near to reflected light. Thus a geological data base at 2mm resolution also for the Moon; equivalent to placing a geologist on the Moon.
 
2 mm at 200 km, that means sin(θ)=10-8. Using Rayleigh criterion

\sin \theta = 1.220 \frac {\lambda}{D}

and assuming visible light at 500 nm, you need lens with 61 meter diameter. Good luck.
 

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