Middle Eastern Politics: Terror Like a Beehive

[kat]

Worst is that USA supported Saddam and other brutal regimes( murderous Iran's shah)in the region.
Where were you then?

I think that about that time I was heavily involved in fighting apartheid and wondering when the state dept would figure out that the enemy of our enemies weren't our friends. Where were you?

 

[kat]

tumor- BTW funding or supporting other countries who then engage in genocide as you have dis-engaged or are disengaging does NOT defer their guilt or the need for action.

 

[tumor]

USA/UK activelly supports murderous regimes,it is not like we did not knew what Shah of Iran , Pinochet or Saddam did.We sold and gave them equipment,cash everything they wanted(receipts are still somwhere in Saddam's archives in Iraq for US bio weapons ).
Why Saddam is not brought to the Hague and be tried there? very simple,because he would spill the beans about US dirty deals.
Man! I wish some huge asteroid would smash this ****ing planet to pieces!

 

[Burnsys]

USA/UK activelly supports murderous regimes,it is not like we did not knew what Shah of Iran , Pinochet or Saddam did.We sold and gave them equipment,cash everything they wanted(receipts are still somwhere in Saddam's archives in Iraq for US bio weapons ).
Why Saddam is not brought to the Hague and be tried there? very simple,because he would spill the beans about US dirty deals.
Man! I wish some huge asteroid would smash this ****ing planet to pieces!

I am from argentina,.. and in the 70's an US backed military coup overtrown democraticaly elected government in argentina... 30.000 died or disapeared... just to name one of many actions like this...

 

[selfAdjoint]

I am from argentina,.. and in the 70's an US backed military coup overtrown democraticaly elected government in argentina... 30.000 died or disapeared... just to name one of many actions like this...

Absolutely. And next door in Chile the US promoted an overthrow of Allende's elected government and its replacement with Pinochet, with equally horrifying tolls of disappeareds.

It is said that Henry Kissinger is afraid to go to Europe, lest he be arrested as an International Criminal.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Zarqawi 'the next generation of al-Qaeda'

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is behind a small percentage of the bombings and terrorist attacks in Iraq. But his have been the bloodiest. This week has seen some of the worst: On Sunday, an orchestrated series of bombings and shellings rocked the U.S. headquarters in Baghdad and killed 37 across the country. On Tuesday, a crowd at a police recruiting station was ripped apart by a suicide car bomb, killing 59.

All this has made Zarqawi the face of jihad in Iraq and the most-wanted terrorist after Osama bin Laden. [continued]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-09-14-zarqawi-usat_x.htm

WASHINGTON--The U.S. intelligence community considers authentic a message on an Islamic Web site in which Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian terrorist who has asserted responsibility for bombings and assassinations in Iraq, was announced to have sworn his network's allegiance to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida, a senior administration official said Monday.

...Although President Bush and his top national security officials have for two years described al-Zarqawi as an al-Qaida official, most analysts in the intelligence community have seen him until now as independent, someone who shared some aims with bin Laden but also considered himself a competitor. Al-Zarqawi has differed in the past with bin Laden over the al-Qaida leader's determination to carry on terrorist operations in the United States and not just in the Middle East.
[continued]

http://thedaily.washington.edu/news...eyField=__Record_ID__&-keyValue=10438&-search

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I talked with my buddy again today and he offered a bit more insight. Before the war, America was like the boogey man - the US military threat was not completely understood, so we gained an advantage through fear of the unknown. But now [though I say incorrectly so] it is perceived that the US military has shown its stuff along with its limits. It is now perceived that we can be managed.

Until now, Bush has had virtually unlimited control and funds to fight his war, and he has created a disaster with us stuck in the middle and no clear way out. What the enemy doesn't understand is that we are fighting a limited war without a draft, and a war that only places demands on a vanishingly small segment of the US population, so as I have argued before, if push came to shove, they ain't seen nothin yet. But most war supporters don't want a draft and we don't want to use nukes, so, we lose; 3000+ dead Americans lose, tens of thousands of injured vets lose, the US military is greatly damaged, US prestige is lost, the Iraqi people lose, we each send uncle Sam about $2000 [minimum] for the trouble, and the bees win.

 

[Astronuc]

Terrorism is like a beehive. It usually just sits there with bees swarming all around, and every now and then a bee may venture out and sting someone, but for the most part the bees stay near the hive. They have their own problems and bee politics to contend with.

If the bees are causing problems and you need to deal with them, walk around the hive carefully and maybe poke the hive gently with stick, but you want to keep the bees where they are. You want them contained in the hive.

Bush went after the hive with baseball bat.

I was thinking along those lines this weekend, although it was more like 'Iraq was a hornets nest. If you walk by it carefully, you might see some hornets and might get stung, but that is about it. Bush (with instigation from Cheney, Rumsfeld et al) went and kicked the tree. And now he'll run off and leave the rest of us to deal with the consequences.'

 

[devil-fire]

I talked with my buddy again today and he offered a bit more insight. Before the war, America was like the boogey man - the US military threat was not completely understood, so we gained an advantage through fear of the unknown. But now [though I say incorrectly so] it is perceived that the US military has shown its stuff along with its limits. It is now perceived that we can be managed.

Until now, Bush has had virtually unlimited control and funds to fight his war, and he has created a disaster with us stuck in the middle and no clear way out. What the enemy doesn't understand is that we are fighting a limited war without a draft, and a war that only places demands on a vanishingly small segment of the US population, so as I have argued before, if push came to shove, they ain't seen nothin yet. But most war supporters don't want a draft and we don't want to use nukes, so, we lose; 3000+ dead Americans lose, tens of thousands of injured vets lose, the US military is greatly damaged, US prestige is lost, the Iraqi people lose, we each send uncle Sam about $2000 [minimum] for the trouble, and the bees win.

are you saying that it would be in the best interest of the usa for the public to stop being squeamish and throw many thousands of more troops into the middle east and even use weapons of mass destruction to clear roadside bombs?

i don't think i understand what you are advocating here

 

[Astronuc]

are you saying that it would be in the best interest of the usa for the public to stop being squeamish and throw many thousands of more troops into the middle east and even use weapons of mass destruction to clear roadside bombs?

i don't think i understand what you are advocating here

I think Ivan was making the point that Bush has really fouled things up and created a terrible mess - and Bush has already lost - there is nothing to win.

The question is then - how does the US move forward and deal with the consequences?


The US must stop acting unilaterally. The coalition of the willing is actually a coalition of deceived and coerced. Blair and Howard are disappointments.

The US has to engage not only Iran and Syria, but also Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other neighboring states, and somehow the animosity among various Sunni and Shii sects must be addressed, otherwise the instability and terrorism will only increase.

And hopefully, the US public will never again elect such an incompetent and unfit person as president.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm certainly not advocating the use of nukes. The point is that they are not an option [unless we are attacked with wmds].

In the beginning, enough boots on the ground might have prevented this disaster, but Bush was talking from both sides of his mouth as usual. I don't know if Iraq could be saved now even with a million troops. The strategy in Baghdad may be working a bit, but without a draft we can't possibly duplicate this success throughout the entire country.

I think what infuriates me the most is that with all the big fat talk about fighting terror and the threat allegedly facing this nation, a draft is and was always out of the question; even with two real wars going badly, and a third declared war on terrorism that still can't find one man - Osama Bin Laden [remember him?]. Then consider our ports and border.

This entire ordeal has been lunacy wrapped in hypocrisy.

 

[denverdoc]

Ivan, while I agree with the general sentiment, one thing you mentioned bears particular scrutiny. You talked about a draft. I completely agree. Heres why, if the entire population is exposed to the prospect of being sent home in a bag or a box, and not just the usual fodder, I think our politicians would think a lot harder if their own son or daughter were exposed to such a risk.

In fact if we do a fast reverse back to the VN war, had George not been able to leapfrog many candidates with the help of daddy, and been exposed to real grunt combat, versus some stint in the Texas Air Guard, I don't think he would have been a war hero. I suspect he wuld have been an early casualty.

In any event it might have prevented the Iraq fiasco as in have more respect for the blood and guts reality of war, and not some abstract exercise in I'll show you... Had he survived, he would also have a lot more character, respect for dissenting views, and a better leader altogether. His blowing off the minimal demands of this safe haven appointment suggests to me as a shrink, that early on he was a spoilt rich kid with significant grandiosity.

 

[turbo]

It is not lost on us "idiots" that Bush, Cheney, Rove, and Rumsfeld all managed to avoid active duty. Does the progressive/liberal movement (in and out of the Democratic party) have the guts to point this out? I don't think so. They and the "liberal" press give the Bushies a free ride every single time he opens his mouth.

 

[denverdoc]

Dan Rather died for the cause, curious to see whether he will be reborn as a leaner, meaner real investigative journalist or give talks and play golf.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Who forged and planted the doc that took down Rather?

 

[denverdoc]

well the record, or what exists of it is clear. Bush was derilict in his duties. I really try to avoid jumping on conspiracy bandwagons, but in this event is seems like a trap.And the force from up above, maybe briliantly, wanted to maje this a non issue as in the cat was already out of the bag via independent media. I'd bet a house on Mr Rove.