Most commonly mispronounced scientists' names

[fresh_42]

I think it is safe to say, if I have not heard another scientist say the same and he is not from the UK I am going to mess it up.

As soon as "ch" shows up, you're out. English is among the worst-prepared languages to pronounce anything. Even English is illogical. My favorite example by G.B. Shaw: ghut (pronounced: fish).

 

[Jonathan Scott]

My favorite example by G.B. Shaw: ghut (pronounced: fish).

Check your sources! I think you mean ghoti, and the attribution to G B Shaw is dubious:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti

 

[fresh_42]

Check your sources!

Was a little book with anecdotes. (Or it was an English man who told me years ago.) And, yes, I somehow made the mistake "ghut" instead of "ghot" from the beginning. Strange thing this is. But the "i" at the end would already be too much information.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Wikipedia has a sound sample. I didn't know he was French, so I mispronounced him, too. The sound sample sounds like "de Broy", i.e. "g" and "l" are silent.

It is worth pointing out that Louis de Broglie is a descendant of an ancient Italian aristocratic family -- the de Broglia family -- that settled in France in 1643. See the Wikipedia link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Broglie

In Italian, the "gli" pronunciation is what linguists refer to as a "voiced palatal lateral approximant", a sound that is similar to the "illi" part of the English word "million". This influenced the French pronunciation of de Broglie's name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_lateral_approximant

 

[StatGuy2000]

Gregg's thread on most commonly misspelt science words reminded me that I wanted to post some time one on the most commonly mispronounced scientists' names. As well as famous names being invoked, they are often of course used for naming effects or units etc.

The absolute worst case is Huyghens. I cringe when I hear people think it has to be pronounced something like Hur-ee-ghens - really ugly. It's Dutch, but it's not as bad as that! Something like High-ghens is nearer, and would be a relief for everybody. van Leeuwenhoek similar - pronunciation like 'fan Live en hook'.

It struck me only now to wonder: couldn't the very official committees who laid down units terminology and definitions have standardised pronunciations? If they did I have never heard of it.

I had a thought earlier about what principles we should generally adopt for pronunciation. It seemed to me the best was not how it comes to you in your own language on the one hand. But on the other hand not quite as it is in the language of origin. That would lead to snobbishness and be impossible in the end. It seems to me a good principle could be pronounce it like somebody who knows how it should be pronounced in the original but does not pretend to do exactly that.

Even that, I have to admit, would be more a case of do what I say than do what I do. I have been thinking the words for so long that it has been difficult for me to mentally switch from Einstein to Einshtein. From Kirchoff pronounced Kerr Choff! like a sneeze to Keer hoff with a difficult German ch.

It's not always obvious that the case arises. For the time I thought the useful Sturm method should be Shtoorm, but it turns out he was French though the name was in origin Germanic so how should that be? Cotton, of the Cotton effect was French too, so pronunciation is not like English cotton, but more like Coe ton with stress on the second syllable which is nasal, difficult to get that right too.

Here is a list of some names I have often enough heard mispronounced (and as I say, am guilty myself).

Huyghens
Cotton
de Broglie
Einstein
Kirchhoff
Sturm
Mendeleev
Ampere
Bernoulli
Buchner, Bunsen
Celsius
Curie
Einstein
Fermat
Hertz
Kirchoff
van Leeuwenhoek
Jacobi

It is worth pointing out that Dutch orthography can be very tricky for English speakers to get right, as the diphthong "uy" or "ui" in Dutch does not exist in English (as is the Dutch "g" sound).

Consider the Dutch pronunciation of Christiaan Huyghens in the click:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/ChristianHuygensPronunciation.ogg

 

[fresh_42]

And the Kuiper belt is even difficult for German speakers. More because of ignorance than because of incapability. I erroneously thought it would be "Keuper" (German transliteration), have heard "Kuhieper" (German transliteration) on tv, only to find out that it is according to Wikipedia "Köiper" (German transliteration). I have written the German sounds since I didn't even want to try to find anything similar in English.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Here is another one. Tycho Brahe

I think it is safe to say, if I have not heard another scientist say the same and he is not from the UK I am going to mess it up.

Oh yeah I spelled his name Tachy, as in tachycardia (which came up in the search) just to add insult to injury.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pronounce+tycho+brahe&rlz=1C1GCEB_enGB882GB882&sxsrf=ALiCzsaOydpIHWgHDW_uPCitRh1sjqJQuA:1668428361640&ei=STJyY47TJtSH8gKsnIGgCg&ved=0ahUKEwjOm9D-0637AhXUg1wKHSxOAKQQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=pronounce+tycho+brahe&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgYIABAFEB4yBQgAEIYDMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgM6BwgjELACECc6CgguEIAEELEDEA06DQguEIAEEMcBEK8BEA06BwgAEIAEEA06BggAEAcQHjoICAAQBxAeEAo6CAgAEAgQBxAeOggIABAFEAcQHjoKCAAQCBAHEB4QCkoECE0YAUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFAAWNkUYOoYaABwAXgAgAGWAYgBqwqSAQQwLjEwmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Actually, the Google link you provided does not give the correct pronunciation of Tycho Brahe's name.

The key is to understand the orthography and pronunciation rules of Danish. The "y" is a sound similar to the French "u" or German "u" with an umlaut symbol ".." above it -- roughly sounds like the sound of "ee" (like in the English word "feet") with your mouth shaped like you are saying the English word "you".

The "ch" sound is similar to the Scottish sound "ch", German sound "ch" or Russian sound "kh".

Furthermore, in Danish, "ahe" sounds like a lengthened "a" sound in the word sound "father".

See the link below.

https://forvo.com/word/tycho_brahe/

 

[pinball1970]

Actually, the Google link you provided does not give the correct pronunciation of Tycho Brahe's name.

The key is to understand the orthography and pronunciation rules of Danish. The "y" is a sound similar to the French "u" or German "u" with an umlaut symbol ".." above it -- roughly sounds like the sound of "ee" (like in the English word "feet") with your mouth shaped like you are saying the English word "you".

The "ch" sound is similar to the Scottish sound "ch", German sound "ch" or Russian sound "kh".

Furthermore, in Danish, "ahe" sounds like a lengthened "a" sound in the word sound "father".

See the link below.

https://forvo.com/word/tycho_brahe/

Ok so there are very different pronunciations there, German, Danish, Swedish and English.
He was Danish so that is the way we should say it? Regardless of our native language?
I tried to say it and it did not sound right because we have no equivalent sounds in English. This was alluded to in post 3 and 4. What is the etiquette?
This applies to place names and borrowed words too?. (This has caused arguments in my life.)

 

[fresh_42]

What is the etiquette?

A guest professor - and I don't remember which corner of the world he came from - said:
"Scientific English is broken English." In the end, it is all about communication. And after three pints ...

 

[TeethWhitener]

Peierls is tough in English. It ends up sounding like “piles,” but inevitably most people try to squeeze an r sound in at semi-random locations.

Ramanujan is accented on the second syllable (RaMAnujan, as opposed to RamaNUjan, which seems to be a common pronunciation among Westerners).

Chandrasekhar is accented on the third syllable. Also, it’s his given name, but his culture uses patronymics instead of family names, so he is properly referred to as “Chandrasekhar.” (Kind of like Björk, which, incidentally, rhymes with “work, not “pork.”)

My favorite is Wannier. Half the people I know pronounce it with a German accent (VanEER), half pronounce it with a French accent (wanYAY). Some poor confused individuals do both (vanYAY). I wanted to know for myself whether he was French or German…it turns out he was Swiss. His given names are clearly English (Gregory Hugh). But he’s from Basel so I have to assume his name is pronounced vanEER.

 

[fresh_42]

But he’s from Basel so I have to assume his name is pronounced vanEER.

He has an interesting vita:
"Wannier studied at the University of Leuven (1930/31) [Dutch], the University of Cambridge (1933/34) [English] and the University of Basel [German], where he received his doctorate in 1935. In 1935/36 he was an assistant at the University of Geneva [French] and went to Princeton University as an exchange student in 1936/37 [English].

And Basel is a three-countries-corner, so French isn't really off the table.

 

[pinball1970]

He has an interesting vita:
"Wannier studied at the University of Leuven (1930/31) [Dutch], the University of Cambridge (1933/34) [English] and the University of Basel [German], where he received his doctorate in 1935. In 1935/36 he was an assistant at the University of Geneva [French] and went to Princeton University as an exchange student in 1936/37 [English].

And Basel is a three-countries-corner, so French isn't really off the table.

Bar-sel lovely place. I pronounced it Barl till I ended up there with work. Not sure why I pronounced it like that.
Place names same issue.

 

[DrClaude]

Bar-sel lovely place. I pronounced it Barl till I ended up there with work. Not sure why I pronounced it like that.
Place names same issue.

Maybe you used the French name for the place: Bâle.

 

[pinball1970]

Maybe you used the French name for the place: Bâle.

Without checking as a Brit, the options are:

Bale - like hail
Bali -As in Ba-li hi - the song and place
Baahl- As in Gnarl
Bale -As in ballet
Barely -As in the crop

Baahl is not the one I would have gone for, ballet would have got my vote.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Ok so there are very different pronunciations there, German, Danish, Swedish and English.
He was Danish so that is the way we should say it? Regardless of our native language?
I tried to say it and it did not sound right because we have no equivalent sounds in English. This was alluded to in post 3 and 4. What is the etiquette?
This applies to place names and borrowed words too?. (This has caused arguments in my life.)

My general rule is to always pronounce names to as close an approximation to how the name would be pronounced in the native language of the ethnicity or nationality of the individual of concern.

So in the case of Tycho Brahe, who was Danish, I try to pronounce the name in line with Danish pronunciation to the best of my ability. So I would pronounce it "Tewko Bra a" or Tewkho Br a".

I apply the same principle to other names as well.

 

[pinball1970]

My general rule is to always pronounce names to as close an approximation to how the name would be pronounced in the native language of the ethnicity or nationality of the individual of concern.

So in the case of Tycho Brahe, who was Danish, I try to pronounce the name in line with Danish pronunciation to the best of my ability. So I would pronounce it "Tewko Bra a" or Tewkho Br a".

I apply the same principle to other names as well.

Yes agreed. Especially if I am actually there. It is a sign of respect and an indication of 'look I'm trying but this is not easy for me!'
If people laugh a lot then that is fine.

 

[robphy]

Lagrange
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lagrange+pronounce

 

[zdcyclops]

This is an "English speakers only" thread. Most other languages do not mispronounce names as English speakers do. To their excuse must be said that they normally simply lack the appropriate sound in their language. Making Bach=back jokes simply don't work for anybody who is capable of pronouncing "a" correctly and "ch" at all.

I dare to claim that you can list every single foreign scientist's name in this thread.

It is worth pointing out that Dutch orthography can be very tricky for English speakers to get right, as the diphthong "uy" or "ui" in Dutch does not exist in English (as is the Dutch "g" sound).

Consider the Dutch pronunciation of Christiaan Huyghens in the click:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/ChristianHuygensPronunciation.ogg

The sole purpose of language is communication. There is no such thing as proper pronunciation. There is no governmental body or international organization that set rules or standards for how words are pronounced.
Names of people should be pronounced however the name holder wants. The only thing that really matters is that the people you speak to understand what you are saying. Publishers of dictionaries gather information on words by surveying what is common now and was common in the past. The contact publisher of the printed word, and look for new words changes in meaning and spelling. They do not make decisions in these matters, just report on the state of the language as it is today.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The sole purpose of language is communication. There is no such thing as proper pronunciation. There is no governmental body or international organization that set rules or standards for how words are pronounced.
Names of people should be pronounced however the name holder wants. The only thing that really matters is that the people you speak to understand what you are saying. Publishers of dictionaries gather information on words by surveying what is common now and was common in the past. The contact publisher of the printed word, and look for new words changes in meaning and spelling. They do not make decisions in these matters, just report on the state of the language as it is today.

@zdcyclops, I both agree and disagree with your statement above.

I agree with you that languages are living, evolving mechanisms of communication, and that pronunciation and vocabulary are subject to evolution and change over periods of time.

However, here are my disagreements with you:

1. First, there does exist governmental bodies in certain countries (e.g. France, Iceland) that set rules on pronunciation of words, as well as other aspects of the national language in question.

2. Second, even where there does not exist a formal governmental structure, there are agreed upon conventions (a consensus, if you will) among language speakers of how certain words or names are to be pronounced in a given language, which is deemed to be "correct". For example, in Italy, it is an agreed upon convention that the letter "z" in Italian is pronounced like the English equivalent of "ts". So the Italian word "pizza" is pronounced "peetsa".

 

[pinball1970]

1. First, there does exist governmental bodies in certain countries (e.g. France, Iceland) that set rules on pronunciation of words, as well as other aspects of the national language in question.

Yes. Also Yorkshire. As a person over this side (of the Pennines ) one has to tread carefully.
If I mess up Slaithwait so spectacularly as a chap from the North West, what chance does a Polish person have?

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/her...e-names-and-how-to-say-them-correctly-3552314

 

[fresh_42]

I wonder by which rules names are pronounced correctly (as natives do) or are translated. E.g. we say New York in English, London in German, and I have never heard that an English (or German) speaking person swallowed the s in Paris.

 

[scottdave]

How about L'Hospital