The discussion centers on the feasibility of moving Phobos to join Deimos, creating a single moon for Mars, utilizing current technology. Participants agree that while the physics and mathematics support the concept, the logistical and financial challenges are monumental. The estimated delta-v required to move a moon-sized object like Phobos is approximately 0.5 km/s, necessitating an impractical amount of fuel—potentially equivalent to the capacity of over a hundred Saturn V rockets. Ultimately, the consensus is that such a project is not feasible with existing technology, primarily due to the immense logistical hurdles involved.
PREREQUISITESAerospace engineers, astrophysicists, space mission planners, and anyone interested in the logistics of large-scale space projects.
barycenter said:With current technology, could humans move Phobos to join with Deimos to create a single Mars moon? Move moon as a whole/cut it up and move it in peices, etc.
Deimos masses about as much as a million Pyramids of Cheops or a billion Saturn Vs.Drakkith said:Yep. I wonder how much fuel that would take for something akin to a hundred plus Saturn V rockets...just to throw out something.
DaveC426913 said:Deimos masses about as much as a million Pyramids of Cheops or a billion Saturn Vs.
Drakkith said:Sorry, I meant how much fuel would be required if we use something akin to 100 saturn V's to provide the force to move the moon. IE bolt these massive engines to it and fire em up!
ryan_m_b said:Even if we could move the moons do we have the technology to safely combine them together? It might be simpler to imagine mining one of them into powder and dumping this into the other moon.
sophiecentaur said:The same amount of energy would be needed, though.
Just because we understand the math and physics does not mean we have the technological understanding. Example: We have a very good idea of the mechanism by which the Sun produces energy and we have very good measurements of how much energy the Sun is producing. That we do have that knowledge does not mean we have the technological understanding of how to build an artificial Sun that produces that amount of energy.Drakkith said:It is within current scientific and technological understanding. We understand the math and have the technology to apply a force to the moon, arguably it is possible to apply enough to move it. However as Dave pointed out, the cost would be simply enormous.
D H said:Just because we understand the math and physics does not mean we have the technological understanding. Example: We have a very good idea of the mechanism by which the Sun produces energy and we have very good measurements of how much energy the Sun is producing. That we do have that knowledge does not mean we have the technological understanding of how to build an artificial Sun that produces that amount of energy.
DaveC426913 said:And, as with fuel, so it is with people. 95% of people and survival resources might result in 5% of the people and the resources left over to actually do the work.
Where would they live? Not on the Moon... where would their air, food and water and building materials come from?
That's not feasible, either. This simply isn't feasible, period, using current technology, or anything remotely resembling current technology.ryan_m_b said:Totally agree. Sticking with the stipulation that we can only use current technology there's no way this would be a manned mission. It would have to be robotic with delayed telepresence.
D H said:That's not feasible, either. This simply isn't feasible, period, using current technology, or anything remotely resembling current technology.
Exactly. Just because we know how to do X does not mean we know how to do 10*x, let alone 106*X. Technology oftentimes does not scale.DaveC426913 said:* actually, even this is beyond us. We do not have the technology to store more than one or two SaturnVs worth of LOx and LHi at a time. You'd need something that would store thousands and thousands of SaturnVs-worth of fuel and a continual pump system to feed the rockets.
How long can LOx and LHi be stored? (Hours.)Drakkith said:What do you mean Dave? Would it not be possible to simply make a lot of storage tanks?
Lsos said:Everybody seems to to have forgotten about the 5000 or so megatons of nuclear weapons we have lying around.
Again: current technology. We don't have that technology.sophiecentaur said:I suspect that storing Lox in space may not be as difficult as storing it on Earth. A few layers of reflective screens between the tank and the Sun (andEarth) would put it in a 'deep space' situation as far as far as balancing absorbing and radiating energy are concerned.
?? Reflecting screens?DaveC426913 said:Again: current technology. We don't have that technology.
Do you seriously think it's that simple?sophiecentaur said:?? Reflecting screens?
sophiecentaur said:Are we after a soft landing or a good old collision? There would be a significant difference in the energy needed in each case.
DaveC426913 said:No we haven't. They're a drop in this bucket.
DaveC426913 said:Do you seriously think it's that simple?
All right. How did all that LOx and LHi get into space in the first place, such that all you need to do is wrap some foil around it?
How would a collision controllably accelerate Deimos to combine with Phobos? Again, seems easy to say, till you start thinking through the deets.
I'll leave it to some math buff to guess how much bomb megatonnage can be converted to useful momentum, then we can simply divide that by a thousand billion tonnes of Moon moving at .5km/s.Lsos said:Ok I'm not so sure that it's possible. But still, I wouldn't say a drop in a bucket...not 5000 megatons.