Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

Multiverse (paradox?)

  1. Aug 22, 2014 #1
    If we assume that multiverse exists; it means that scientists goal are to prove this theory...but they are not successful in our universe. That means that there infinite universes where they have succeeded to prove it. Than scientist from one of those infinite universes, should be able to enter our universe and thereby prove our existence - at the same time - we would get proof of their existence...consequently proof of multiverse.

    Since no other scientists from parallell universes has "knocked" on our door, it is proof that multiverse doesn't exist.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 22, 2014 #2

    jedishrfu

    Staff: Mentor

    Welcome to PF!

    Nice logic but flawed:

    OPTION 1: Consider the statement: Everything I say is a lie.

    That can never be proved true or false in any universe.

    OPTION 2: It takes 15 billion years to be smart enough to make the knocker, hence no one has knocked yet.

    OPTION 3: Remember the joke about the guy who refused to leave his home when the police warned him of an imminent flood saying God will protect me.

    When the flood waters rose he climbed up on his roof and a police boat came by and he said God will protect me.

    Finally when the helicopter came to the rescue, he refused and said God will protect me.

    After being swept away by the waters and arriving in Heaven, he complains to God why didn't you save me and God says what do you mean, I sent a warning, a boat and helicopter what more do you want?

    For this case, what would a knock sound like? Maybe we've heard it already.
     
  4. Aug 22, 2014 #3
    Since there are infinite of universes, the "knock" would be of all kind...as well as physical entering to our universe from theirs. Perhaps we've "heard" knocking and "ignored" but we should witness their appearance as well.
     
  5. Aug 22, 2014 #4

    phinds

    User Avatar
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    No, there is absolutely no evidence of any kind for more than one universe. If you believe there is, you need to cite it. Not a THEORY that there might be or has to be put proof that there is. You will not find any such.
     
  6. Aug 22, 2014 #5
    I definitely don't believe in multiverse. I guess my question is;
    If the theoretical physicists accepts and/or argues for such possibility, how can they disregard that we haven't gotten visitors from another enlightened universe?
     
  7. Aug 22, 2014 #6

    phinds

    User Avatar
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    No idea. You'd have to ask them. I'm sure they have a perfectly reasonable rationale since otherwise they would have to give up on their belief in a multiverse.

    My point is that you seem to think that the lack of any such explanation IS evidence of the multiverse. If you don't believe in the multiverse, why worry about irrelevant issues?
     
  8. Aug 22, 2014 #7
    Hi hbi99!
    I do agree with what phinds said above, but I also want to point out another flaw in your logic:

    How does A imply B? Having evidence that something exists does not automatically imply that it can be visited.
     
  9. Aug 23, 2014 #8

    haushofer

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor

    It can, if they try it on "anything can happen-thursday".
     
  10. Aug 23, 2014 #9

    Chronos

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    Maybe they already visited here and reported back - "No intelligent life forms detected."
     
  11. Aug 23, 2014 #10
    Infinite possibilities means that A implies B...that implies C...and it even implies Z. If infinite is used as an argument in a theory, than it can be used in the opposing argument, hence disaffirming the initial argument by following a logic containing "infinite".
     
  12. Aug 23, 2014 #11

    phinds

    User Avatar
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    This is nonsense. Infinity has no impact on logic. Either A implies B or it does not.
     
  13. Aug 23, 2014 #12

    ChrisVer

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

  14. Aug 23, 2014 #13
    Can you paste in a link where it is proven that infinity has no impact on logic?

    @ChrisVer - thanks for the links
     
  15. Aug 23, 2014 #14

    micromass

    User Avatar
    Staff Emeritus
    Science Advisor
    Education Advisor
    2016 Award

    You misunderstand infinity. You seem to think that when something is infinite, then "everything will happen". This is a very common misunderstanding. The relevant theory is that of the Infinite Monkey Theorem which says that if a monkey is given an infinite amount of time, then he will produce a work by Shakespeare. The point that many miss is that there are many assumptions in the Infinite Monkey Theorem which needs to be satisfied. If you miss those assumptions, then the Monkey will not produce Shakespeare even when given an infinite amount of time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

    In short, just because something is infinite, does not mean that everything will happen. For example, the following string is infinite:

    [tex]010101010101010101...[/tex]

    and yet the number ##2## will not appear. The interval ##[0,1]## is infinite, and still it will not contain negative numbers. And a physical example: you can never break the physical laws even if the universe exists for an infinite amount of time.
     
  16. Aug 23, 2014 #15

    phinds

    User Avatar
    Gold Member
    2016 Award

    In addition to misunderstanding infinity, as micromass has pointed out, you misunderstand this forum. The way it works here is that if you make a definitive statement (such as "Infinite possibilities means that A implies B") YOU are responsible for providing the link to its validity.

    If this seems unreasonable to you, stop and think about this: why would science or math journals devote space to DISproving nonsense? It just doesn't work that way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
  17. Aug 23, 2014 #16

    ChrisVer

    User Avatar
    Gold Member

    Another example about infinity...the energy states of the infinite well are : [itex]E_{n}= n^2 \epsilon[/itex], and they are infinite... so are their eigenstates [itex]|n>[/itex].
    Although the eigenstates are infinte, the [itex]<m|n>= \delta_{mn}[/itex] or , for illustrating what I want to say better, [itex]<m|n>=0[/itex] for [itex] m \ne n[/itex] holds for all of them. So you have infinite eigenstates, but their projection on each other (but themselves) is always zero.

    If I understand the thing about the string vacua, if you have several vacua [itex]|0_{i}>[/itex], then their projection on each other will give you zero if they are not the same... [itex]<0_{j}|0_{i}>=0 [/itex].
    Or even if they were to be somehow communicating between each other, then their difference (or better said the potential you would use) would have to be such that they wouldn't be able to decay on to each other for as long as the universe time is ... That is also used in other theories (GUTs) where you can have several vacua and somehow they can decay on to each other.... if that's true, then the universe can exist in a metastable state.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2014
  18. Sep 19, 2014 #17
    No, I will not post a link, sorry. But I will say this: in mathematics infinity has a definite meaning and a referent.

    In other areas "infinity" lacks a referent and is meaningless and therefore has no impact on an argument. See: Logical Positivism.

    note: I oversimplify for the sake of brevity
     
  19. Sep 19, 2014 #18
    Maybe the existence of other universes isn't something we can prove by experiment (the ultimate standard of proof in physics!) Even if other universes can be shown to exist by experiment, maybe it would still not be possible to enter another universe.
     
  20. Sep 19, 2014 #19

    Chronos

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    The infinite multiverse concept invokes logical paradoxes. I like the Fermi comment - 'where are they?'. In other words, where are all the 'visitors' from this infinite number of parallel universes? Are they garden gnomes we are unable to perceive, or just nonsense?
     
  21. Sep 19, 2014 #20
    Doesn't "impossible" contradict "infinite possibilities/universes"? Don't get me wrong...I accept that it might not be possible but in that scenario, "infinite" should be removed from the equation since there is at least one impossible universe. In a infinite number of universes, everything should be possible.
     
Know someone interested in this topic? Share this thread via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook




Similar Discussions: Multiverse (paradox?)
  1. Multiverse question (Replies: 2)

  2. LQG and the multiverse (Replies: 1)

  3. Why the multiverse? (Replies: 28)

Loading...