Music Musical Chills: Do You Experience Them?

[fuzzyfelt]

I'm not much of a scientist to be honest, the physics field is a bit new to me...

However I am very interested in this subject, so I decided to register for this!

A while back I first consciously experienced this feeling. I had felt it very often before, but never actually stood still by it's presence. This feeling came to me through music. But also through nature...

Now recently I've learned that people can experience the same thing when looking at art. Since I'm studying art and hoping to make art that can give me (and perhaps others) these chills, I've gained some interest on the subject.

I started with trying to find out what it was in music that gave me these chills. Later on I would find the research done by Panksepp and Huron, but not after making a list with music and chill-moments.

I opened the list with classical pieces that I had recently discovered and could listen to several times a day and still get the chills...

J.S. Bach -- BWV 783 2-part invention #12 -- Glenn Gould after 27 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc7Zk33ImNI"

J.S. Bach -- BWV 781 2-part invention #10 -- Glenn Gould after 24 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32mqWa1TPeQ"

L. Beethoven Piano Concerto #5 in E flat major, Op.73, II at 1.41 and 5.25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvaLDtf5JW8&feature=related"

S. Rachmaninov -- Pianoconcerto #3, I- Allegro Ma Non Tanto -- B.Glemser at 1.20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVFMRkE0250"

and more of these... so like the first post of the topic, I was thinking, maybe the gender has something to do with it? It's all classical so far...

Then I came to realize that I had these chills before I had gained this sudden interest in classical music.

Rolling Stones -- You can’t always get what you want at 4.24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OagFIQMs1tw&feature=related"

The Rolling Stones, but also the Red Hot Chilipeppers, Jimi Hendrix, Kyteman and Nina Simone managed to find their way into the list.

At first I was thinking the complexity gave me the chills. Mainly because that was when I got the chills from nature experiences, when I tried to take in all the details and admire all the twisted shapes of branches and leaves and the clouds at the same time. The Bach inventions worked sort of the same way.

But, the list disagrees, not everything in it was all that complicated... what it did require however was attention. If I am just playing it in the background nothing happens. Crescendo's, decrescendos, more instruments, less instruments, high registers, low registers, they all appeared in several pieces of music on the list. There was no real help in trying to find a common overlap in music.

So in came the nature experiences that gave me the same kind of chill. Grand Canyon, Yosemite, some other big inspiring places, but also some small park in the neighbourhood. While big things seemed to make a bigger chance, they were not the only things that could give me chills. It also came with a sort of realization of how big this place is, and how much there is unexplored.

Now David Huron, with his theory of fears being neutralized or even turned into pleasure, he also spoke about other causes of frisson. (another word for these ' chills ' we are discribing)

He names (among others): music, nature, touch, a warm bath, a sudden flash of insight.

That last one is playing in my head at the moment. The theory is, that the insight comes suddenly and is somewhat scary at first, somewhat unexpected big brainstimulation I guess...

I guess you know the feeling (I do recognize it now, although I didn't at first link it with the feeling I get from music... it is the same.)

You are doing some maths or thinking on a problem very hard, and all of a sudden you know that you know the answer. It is not all there, clear in your head, but you know that you have solved it. This comes with a chill but you still have to work it out.

Can't the same be true for those chills one can find in art and nature? That the brain suddenly makes some sort of connection that you didn't expect and suddenly have this feeling: "Wow, fantastic" or maybe even "I understand it now" (while you can't exactly say what it is you are understanding...)

Or is it like Kandinsky thought, and with him many other artists, Plato and some other philosphers? People have a sense of harmony in their mind. Not many (if any) are able to show that harmony, but many of us can recognize it. Maybe this kind of sense goes up for musical harmonies (not so much harmonies but a sense for composition, rythm, melody, or what else there might be), color harmonies, shape harmonies, smell (think of the fresh smell of a morning in the forest) and sense harmonies (a certain temperature-shift? Or maybe a texture like quality you can touch, or being in the water..)

Anyways, I've been doing a lot of thinking on the subject and I haven't gotten anywhere yet. But oh well that's what a lot of us artists & philosophers do... For answers we've got you physics people...

I do think that this can be explained by delving deeper into neurology though. We just need to understand a little bit more about how the brain processes senses and visual images. And more importantly how that relates to chills. I haven't found an experiment like the ones Panksepp and Huron did for other fields of interest than music. I hope someone with vision comes up with something!

Thanks for writing in this thread everyone, I enjoyed clicking all the links and reading the comments. I hope this post made some sense ;)

And help me out: Where does the dopamine kick in?

Greetings,
Gerben

PS. Longest chill (that I've recorded) about 67 seconds while listening to music. No matter how often I try to get it again on that same bit of music it never lasts that long now...
This is the bit of music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TUzaW0-K1k"

I've had as many as 4 chills in a row listening to Rachmaninov's 3rd pianoconcerto's opening 5 times in a row.

Welcome, Gerben! and thanks for a great post!

Part of why I find this interesting is for the same reasons as you.
Wonderful choice of music and wonderful thoughts, thanks. I'm rethinking a lot about it.
I've been interested in the degree of complexity involved, too, and agree that although complexity seems very important, sometimes what seems to be simplicity works as well. I wonder if the seeming simplicity is actually more complex.

Thanks too, for the description of various responses. I have some questions about dopamine myself. I wonder if it might be helpful to move this thread to medical sciences, or maybe it is better as a more conversational thread.

Thanks Rhody and Char too for your responses.
btw, I have tried some quite good tequila, now, but the person selling it was just out of the really good stuff, so will have to try again, drats :)

 

[Borek]

Sorry to disagree with Lisab and Danger, but I really think I have felt chills on listening to a piece for the first time.

Happens for sure. In early eighties I was visiting a church somewhere in Hungary and someone was just testing organs before the concert. That was incredible, probably mostly because it was unexpected. I was stunned and "goosebumped". Interestingly, later that day I was at the concert in the same church, and while it was interesting, the effect was not that overwhelming.

Nothing works on me as good as intro to Money for nothing. Must be played loud. When the guitar starts, I am shaking

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I think I’ve felt the same. Nearby where my son plays sport sometimes I hear rehearsals escaping as I watch him. It is unexpected and chilling and also feels surreal.

Dire Straits are great!

 

[GerbenD]

Thanks for the warm welcome! (Yet slapping me with a fish? Probably some custom I'm not used to ... )

Rhody, you are right, timing chills isn't easy. I only figured out it was 67 seconds long because I stopped the music at the moment the chill left me. Later on I checked when the chill started (which is way easier to determine). (This was while riding home on my bicycle, so I guess that riding a bicycle doesn't take too much attention)

And Char, that brings me to a different discovery. Chills when music starts... now with Huron and Panksepp's theories, it is mostly about a change in music. The chill comes up when there is some sort of element of surprise. This can be the introduction of a new instrument, or a new melody, an increase in volume, or some other kind of change. In most of the cases listed, there is a buildup to the chill-point. When the music starts, there hasn't been any buildup. Yet as Char and Borek have stated (and I have experienced it myself aswell!), the start of a piece of music can also give this chill.

This might be of importance. First of all, it might have something to do with anticipation. The way music works with expectations being satisfied (or not). Some kind of reward system...
The idea would be that when you listen to a piece of music, the first notes would trigger your brain to come up with expectations. You know what will come and already get excited, maybe to the point of chill.

However, that wouldn't really fit with what Borek said, he'd never heard the organ music before. So how could the start of that music piece give him any expectations?

Now if music can give these chills from the start of a piece, that might suggest that it is not the build-up and change in music that makes the chills rise, but the notes themselves. But! When I listen to one of the pieces that I know will cause this feeling and I skip ahead to where the chill should come up, it doesn't happen.

So while in some cases it is necessary to have change in music to cause the chill, it seems to also be possible to experience these chills without a change in music (right from the start).

Now at the moment I think that even going from silence (or just background noise) to the start of the music is a change, one that may at first cause fear and then the calming reaction of the brain (contrastive valence was what Huron called it I believe) will turn into a pleasurable feeling.

All this further reinforces David Huron's theory on 'sudden' changes causing chills.

So to give us these chills, should music, art, nature, books, and others present a shock to chill us? And ofcourse have some sort of way to neutralize the shock. (although according to Huron, the simple realization of: it's nothing, you'll be fine... is enough )

Then again, just appearing might be enough. On the one hand it would be possible to prepare a kind of state of expectation in our minds so the change will have an impact. And on the other hand some change could contrast silence (or rest, or emptyness, or a neutral temperature) so that it will carry the same impact as a prepared change would have.

Hmm maybe I should put some more thought into this. And the fact that you can expect a chill, and still get it... Huron explains this by calling fear a primal defense system. We will always be surprised by change, just as we will feel pain. Experience will not change the first response (fear-reflex). But how come we don't experience these chills all the time then? There are so many occasions on which we experience sudden changes and aren't feeling any response... there must be something unique to everyone that causes them to react so intensely to just these few things. And while these chills are cause by different pieces of music, the warm bath experience is more universal.

Which brings me back to those philosophers who thought there might be some sense for harmonies in our brains. And the fact that many people experience chills from the same cause does stimulate me to keep looking for a sort of common factor. If such a common factor was found, it would be easier to deliberately cause these chills. For music, Panksepp and Hurons research pretty much worked in this way. Through the ages composers have stolen and copied to induce these chills. If that works for so many people, can't we do the same for visual experiences?

The more I think about it the less likely it seems to me that to find a common cause in music will result in finding links between music and other causes of chills. The only common cause seems to be change, surprise.

And then the dopamine, is it released as a result of the contrastive valence response? And how does it relate to a normal feel-good-feeling? I mean, I can feel pretty good, sitting on a couch, a blanket wrapped around me, listening to relaxing music. But not quite experience that chill. Is there more dopamine release? Or is it a different kind of substance? I should probably do some more reading!Fuzzyfelt, maybe we could make a different thread focusing not only on music but also on other chill-causing sensations in the medical sciences area.

This thread can then continue to function as a great place to collect chill-moments in music.

Erm and sorry for the messy post, I sort of think while I write. (lots of text between brackets too, sorry for that)

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Fuzzyfelt, maybe we could make a different thread focusing not only on music but also on other chill-causing sensations in the medical sciences area.

This thread can then continue to function as a great place to collect chill-moments in music.

Good idea. I'll leave it with you so it suits you.

 

[CronoSpark]

Got lots of musical chills as well, though not so much now. But yes, there's other fields where you can get the good-feel chill as well!

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Agreed, CronoSpark, thanks.

 

[Taylor36]

Yeah I too have a great experience with it but only with Heavy Metal music...

 

[samoon]

I get musical chills mainly from vocals. I'm not a musician, but I am a dancer. Maybe that explains the music-body connection I have?

 

[SamirS]

Sounds get me chills and goosebumps, yes. I have several categories:

The good ones - mostly from vocals, and I've NEVER had chills from recorded music from a studio(music on which engineering or mixing of any kind was performed), only from live performances (which, again can be recorded or, for example, shown on TV).

I feel that most produced music today takes away a lot of the natural roughness and bumpiness of human voice. It's the idea that even two singers hitting the exact same key don't sound like the same voice (this is something auto-tune seems to make out of voices...) - I'm no music professional of any kind so I lack the correct description of that certain... let's call it "character". However, the singer should actually know how to sing well of course!

Then there's another kind of chills which depends on the mood and the... "way the music goes while it plays". I listen to electronic music a lot, and it works very well to transfer moods. It's very hard to describe, every kind of sound just translates into... well, shapes? Music tends to create fractal pictures before my "inner eye" and to even influence the color of things I see. Green is still green, but it changes with the mood the music invokes in me. Hard to describe.

And third, painful goose bumps and chills. There are sounds, not sharp or loud, which actually feel like "tearing" in my mind, and cause almost physical pain to me. Unsharpened pencil on paper. Kleenex being even touched. That sound kills me. People rubbing their hands (or anybody part) against fabric. Markes being used on paper. I exclusively use moist toilet paper because of that. If I'm somewhere where there's only normal toilet paper, I need to wet my fingers and make several layers of toilet paper so it doesn't tear while using.

I get goose bumps from this so hard it actually hurts in my skin. And, this is no jokes, even my nipples hurt because my skin is contracting so hard. My peers often torture me with this, but I actually don't find it funny in any way.

 

[rhody]

But how come we don't experience these chills all the time then?

If I may, I can distill my experience with sudden chills for no apparent reason (other than thinking about them) to a potential being reached, in my case, mind you it is my own humble opinion, of histamine being released. Why I say this is because some time ago (I posted about it so you can check older posts), I was taking folic acid, about 400mg daily for months and months, and as I noted chill incidents, from music, from a creative thought, etc, etc... there was a common thread that for me at least appeared to intensify the experience, and that was folic acid's ability to stimulate the release of histamine (found this through stumbling into it online) in my body. I curtailed my folic acid intake, and low and behold I was not as easily able to cause an intense "chill sensation", it was still there, but muted and not as long lasting, I went back on the folic acid and after a week or two, the longer lasting intense chills returned. I admit that I did not conduct a double blind experiment where I took a placebo, to see if in fact that the effect was purely psychological, but I am more than 90% certain that it wasn't. I also noted that the longer I stayed off folic acid the longer it took when going back on it to achieve the same effect. One good side effect of not taking folic acid, I do not sneeze or react to airborne irritants as easily. The downside is that I miss the intense feeling that comes with a chill, but the realization that there is a chemical component to it (for me anyway) was surprising. That's about it, Gerben, your thoughts ?

Rhody...

P.S. Hi, Fuzzy, will post soon in the tequila thread, have some new stuff to share. Later...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Interesting, Taylor, Samoon and SamirS!

I like the idea of the body-music connection, Samoon.

Was "timbre" the word SamirS was thinking of? And yes, shape or form of music. It is hard to know where metaphore ends and synaesthesia begins, as music also can be described with colour, etc.

I hadn't thought of relating bad chills to musical chills, but agree it seems very relevant, and rather subjective although I feel the same way about Kleenex.

I look forward to your tequila post with new stuff, rhody! I tried Patron again last week. Leafy greens are still a favourite of mine and fortunately I don't suffer allergies.

 

[Caution Robot]

I thought it might be interesting to take a sample here of those who do or don’t experience it, or who may admit to, given the alternative names it has been given, etc. (I would understand any unwillingness to participate.) Some questions for affirmative answers would be-
1. Do you play any instruments?
2. Which genres do you like?

I do experience it, and play instruments and generally like all genres I know of, but probably less so music with lyrics that are overtly emotional.

I'm a musician, there are few genres I don't like - and I get chills big time - ime it has nothing to do with genre. Goosebumps covering both arms - the sensation is highly enjoyable.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Hi Caution Robot, thanks. I think the papers I'd read at the time said that chills might be more likely in musicians, and in those who enjoyed more complex music. From this thread, like I'd thought, that might not be the case. But I still wonder if there are correlations between the sort of musical trigger, vocals, resolutions, etc., and preferred genres.

 

[SamirS]

I think it has a lot to do with association. For example, I'm generally not a fan of "dryness" as in Kleenex. I'm also the biggest hand lotion junkie you can find. I use up at least 2 - 3 100ml tubes a month solely for my hands.

The good chills, as with enjoyable music, is, for me, pretty much the same feeling I get when I have a huge insight into something and often even if I just think intensely about our universe and its vastness. It's pretty much the same feeling of awe and appreciation of beauty for me, usually accompanied by that tight feeling in the throat (which most people would associate with love?).

When I was younger I never had appreciation for, say, Pavarotti. Some years ago, I listened to his singing for the first time, and though I don't like opera, the vast volume, power, "pressure" and intensity of his voice was staggering. The hair on my arms looked like an angry cat. I'm sure the feeling is independent of the type of music; for me, I feel as if certain timbres (thanks for the word!) and vocal ranges just touch something primal, the appreciation of beauty humans are born with.

That's also the reason I dislike typical pop music. It's not because it's too "commercial" or too "mainstream"; I don't care for such categories. However, a lot of it is audibly auto-tuned to deliver a keywise perfect performance, and this for me is a very cold perfection!

 

[SamirS]

I think it has a lot to do with association. For example, I'm generally not a fan of "dryness" as in Kleenex. I'm also the biggest hand lotion junkie you can find. I use up at least 2 - 3 100ml tubes a month solely for my hands.

The good chills, as with enjoyable music, is, for me, pretty much the same feeling I get when I have a huge insight into something and often even if I just think intensely about our universe and its vastness. It's pretty much the same feeling of awe and appreciation of beauty for me, usually accompanied by that tight feeling in the throat (which most people would associate with love?).

When I was younger I never had appreciation for, say, Pavarotti. Some years ago, I listened to his singing for the first time, and though I don't like opera, the vast volume, power, "pressure" and intensity of his voice was staggering. The hair on my arms looked like an angry cat. I'm sure the feeling is independent of the type of music; for me, I feel as if certain timbres (thanks for the word!) and vocal ranges just touch something primal, the appreciation of beauty humans are born with.

That's also the reason I dislike typical pop music. It's not because it's too "commercial" or too "mainstream"; I don't care for such categories. However, a lot of it is audibly auto-tuned to deliver a keywise perfect performance, and this for me is a very cold perfection!

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I agree about dryness. I think somewhere in this thread I confessed to getting chills from humidity, although I think that is unusual, but it is for similar reasons of not being a fan of "dryness". And I think I see what is meant by cold perfection, too. That helps, thanks.

 

[randomperson8]

Only from amazing music. Songs that do it:

Ratatat - Cherry
Ratatat - Grape Juice City
Andy Blueman - Sea Tides
And as well as these some AMAZING orchestral music can like 'To Zanarkand', especially when I'm playing it on the piano!

I get them from Ratatat-Cherry too. Such a great song, and it's so simple too! I get them a lot actually, but this video I saw recently gives me really strong ones all over my body.

probably cause I'm a huge Bob Marley fan

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Great video, thanks randomperson8!

 

[SamirS]

I'm sitting in a course right now and there are several people who seem to have caught the common cold. Every time someone pops a Kleenex, I die a little bit inside.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

My sympathies :)

 

[rhody]

Fuzzy,

I had a thought, this post has 260 replies and I was thinking we could colaborate, split the posts 50/50, then summarize (from gross detail to increaing levels of fine detail perhaps within categories of chill themes if you will) of all of the criteria that lead to a chill sensation. I am willing to be the list will be quite extensive.

Example:

• Reason 1
• Reason 2
• Etc...

Rhody... P.S. This would probably not be a PF first, but a collaboration on a thread to summarize it probably would. Your thoughts ? This could take some time and a few review cycles before posting. Maybe this idea would spark others to consider researching and or summarizing in two's or a small group.

 

[Darken-Sol]

yep i get em. "lux aeterna" clint mansell does it. something wierd. i dream music but only "sultans of swing" dire straights. another thing i find if i listen to female vocalists i can avoid nightmares.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Fuzzy,

I had a thought, this post has 260 replies and I was thinking we could colaborate, split the posts 50/50, then summarize (from gross detail to increaing levels of fine detail perhaps within categories of chill themes if you will) of all of the criteria that lead to a chill sensation. I am willing to be the list will be quite extensive.

Example:

• Reason 1
• Reason 2
• Etc...

Rhody... P.S. This would probably not be a PF first, but a collaboration on a thread to summarize it probably would. Your thoughts ? This could take some time and a few review cycles before posting. Maybe this idea would spark others to consider researching and or summarizing in two's or a small group.

Nice idea, thanks Rhody, it would be good to collaborate. I should be free in a day or two. Also, I really didn't put enough thought into thsi thread originally, so feel free to take this one over or start another or anything like that. Back in a bit.

Also, interesting comments, Darken-Sol. Funny you only dream "Sultans of Swing". Good choice!

 

[rhody]

Nice idea, thanks Rhody, it would be good to collaborate. I should be free in a day or two. Also, I really didn't put enough thought into thsi thread originally, so feel free to take this one over or start another or anything like that. Back in a bit.

Fuzzy,

I think it would be cool for folks to see the chill list in one feel swoop, like I did in the brain plasticity thread. That way people who have something NOT on the list will be more inclined to add their "new addition" because of the condensed summary.

Rhody...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Back again, Rhody. Sounds good. So, to split the posts, which half would you like? And thanks for your help.

 

[rhody]

Back again, Rhody. Sounds good. So, to split the posts, which half would you like? And thanks for your help.

I will take the second half, you take the first, when you get done, PM me we will compare/consolidate, reword for clarity as necessary then combine them. I will start this weekend. It is an iterative processes. I may learn something new or get some insight that is "hidden in the data", at least that is what I am hoping, effort sometimes but not always equals reward.

Rhody...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Good! I'll get to work, thanks again, Rhody.

 

[rhody]

I have a new one to add, picked up the bike after 600 break-in at the dealer, they removed the 9K rev limit, and gradually rolling on the throttle in 2nd gear, once the revs got beyond 9K I got the biggest chill from the noise of the formula one type exhaust note, I rolled off, then rolled on again this time harder, and the visceral acceleration combined with the exhaust note did it again, a bit stronger this time. On the way home from the shop, about 20 miles, it happened a few more times, and at just normal riding pace, nothing I hadn't done in the first 600 miles of riding. Now that I think back about it, I think my brain was replaying the first two incidents in the "background" so to speak. Very powerful, now I have an inkling why for some it becomes an addiction, the anticipation is the key, actually experiencing the event is just a bonus. Amazing...

On a practical note, the only reason to head into this zone is on the track, if I put myself in a cage (car) and had someone pass me on my bike without me knowing they were there above 9K, it would scare the **** out of me. I wouldn't want to experience that on a regular basis.

I haven't ridden a stock bike with a stock very suppressed exhaust, so the sensation may not be there or may not be as intense. I will try to find someone with a stock exhaust and swap bikes and report back.

Fuzzy, I will start on consolidation of the second half of posts this weekend, the crappier the weather, the more I will accomplish, hehe...

Rhody...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Visceral acceleration combined with exhaust note of your bike- how perfect! Engine sounds have been mentioned before here, too.

I realize consolidation is harder than I guessed, but I've made a start.