Na3PO4 or C2H4(OH)2: Which Produces pH Curve?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of which compound, Na3PO4 or C2H4(OH)2, could produce a pH curve with two buffer zones. Participants explore the chemical properties and potential reactions of both compounds in the context of pH titration and buffer capacity.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that Na3PO4 is likely the answer due to its ability to react multiple times, while questioning the reactivity of C2H4(OH)2 with water.
  • Another participant notes that Na3PO4 is an alkaline salt and mentions that C2H4(OH)2, being an alcohol, does not contribute significantly to alkalinity due to its hydroxyl groups.
  • It is mentioned that Na3PO4 may undergo three steps of equilibria, but the third equivalence point may be difficult to resolve from the second due to their proximity.
  • Some participants discuss the pKa values of phosphate, suggesting that the endpoints of the titration may be well separated, but express uncertainty about the practical resolution of the last two endpoints.
  • A later reply proposes that it might be possible to produce a pH curve with two buffer zones by titrating Na3PO4 with HCl and stopping at a pH of 4-5.
  • One participant shares their experience with a program that calculates titration curves, indicating practical applications of the discussed concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reactivity of C2H4(OH)2 and the resolution of equivalence points in the titration of Na3PO4. There is no consensus on which compound definitively produces a pH curve with two buffer zones.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the challenge of resolving the third equivalence point in the titration of Na3PO4 and the potential limitations of using C2H4(OH)2 in this context. The discussion reflects varying assumptions about the behavior of the compounds in titration scenarios.

temaire
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Homework Statement


Which of the following, Na3PO4 or C2H4(OH)2 could produce a pH curve with two buffer zones?

The Attempt at a Solution


I think the answer is Na3PO4 because it can react twice, but the third reaction may not complete. C2H4(OH)2 is ethylene glycol. Is it possoble for it to react with water to produce a pH curve? Any help would be appreciated.
 
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Your first compound is an alklaline salt, and your second compound is an alcohol with two hydroxyl functional groups. Those groups are not hydrixide ions, so no significant contribution to alkalinity. The sodium orthophosphate may go through maybe three steps of equilibria process. You can titrate and create a curve (pH titration), but you can not well resolve the third equivalence point from the second equivalence point (too close together).
 
symbolipoint said:
The sodium orthophosphate may go through maybe three steps of equilibria process. You can titrate and create a curve (pH titration), but you can not well resolve the third equivalence point from the second equivalence point (too close together).

Surely they are rather well separated? pKs of phosphate 2.15, 6.86 and 12.32

Maybe it is rather a trick question? - you could "produce a pH curve with two buffer zones" by e.g. titrating Na3PO4 with HCl, amd stopping when you get to about pH 4-5. ?
 
epenguin said:
Surely they are rather well separated? pKs of phosphate 2.15, 6.86 and 12.32

Maybe it is rather a trick question? - you could "produce a pH curve with two buffer zones" by e.g. titrating Na3PO4 with HCl, amd stopping when you get to about pH 4-5. ?

In practice the last two endpoints are difficult to resolve. There is nothing fundamentally wrong in actually TRYING such a titration. A typical lower division (and sometimes upper division) lab exercise is to titrate orthophosphoric acid and make a titration curve of volume of titrant versus pH. ( orthophosphoric acid, H3PO4 )
 
Ah, there is nothing like being an author of a program that calculates such curves :wink:

phosphoric_acid_titrated_with_sodium_hydroxide.png


This is phosphoric acid tritrated with sodium hydroxide (both 0.01M).

phosphate_titrated_with_hydrochloric_acid.png


This is phosphate tritrated with hydrochloric acid (both 0.01M).
 

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