Noetherian Modules and Short Exact Sequences .... Bland, Corollary 4.2.6 ....

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding Corollary 4.2.6 from Paul E. Bland's book "Rings and Their Modules," specifically in the context of Noetherian and Artinian modules. Participants are examining the implications of a short exact sequence of R-modules and its relationship to the properties of the modules involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Participants seek clarification on the proof of Corollary 4.2.6 and its dependence on Proposition 4.2.5.
  • One participant presents a short exact sequence of R-modules and discusses the implications for the maps and modules involved, suggesting that the injectivity of f and surjectivity of g can be inferred.
  • Another participant agrees with the initial claims about the properties of f and g, prompting further exploration of the modules M1, M, and M2.
  • There is discussion about applying the first isomorphism theorem in the context of the exact sequence, with participants attempting to relate the modules through their kernels and images.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the nature of the quotient modules and whether certain conclusions can be drawn regarding their isomorphisms.
  • One participant suggests that if M is Noetherian, then certain submodules and quotient modules must also be Noetherian, referencing Proposition 4.2.5.
  • Another participant confirms the correctness of the reasoning presented, indicating a potential path to proving Corollary 4.2.6.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

While some participants agree on the correctness of certain claims regarding the properties of the modules and the application of theorems, there remains uncertainty about specific conclusions, particularly regarding the nature of the quotient modules and the implications of the isomorphisms. The discussion does not reach a consensus on all points raised.

Contextual Notes

Participants express limitations in their understanding of the relationships between the modules and the implications of the exact sequence, particularly regarding the assumptions necessary for applying theorems and drawing conclusions about Noetherian properties.

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I am reading Paul E. Bland's book, "Rings and Their Modules".

I am focused on Section 4.2: Noetherian and Artinian Modules and need some help to fully understand the proof of part of Corollary 4.2.6 ... ...

Corollary 4.2.6 reads as follows:View attachment 8193
Bland gives a statement of Corollary 4.2.6 but does not offer a proof ... ...

Can someone please explain how to prove Corollary 4.2.6 ...Since Corollary 4.2.6 is a corollary to Proposition 4.2.5 I am providing the text of Proposition 4.2.5 and its proof ... as follows ... ... https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/8194
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/8195
 
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$$0\rightarrow M_1\overset{f}{\rightarrow}M\overset{g}{\rightarrow}M_2\rightarrow 0$$

is an exact sequence of R-modules, what can you say about the R-maps $f$ and $g$, and the R-modules $M_1$, $M$, and $M_2$ ? (see page 83).
 
steenis said:
$$0\rightarrow M_1\overset{f}{\rightarrow}M\overset{g}{\rightarrow}M_2\rightarrow 0$$

is an exact sequence of R-modules, what can you say about the R-maps $f$ and $g$, and the R-modules $M_1$, $M$, and $M_2$ ? (see page 83).
Thanks steenis ...

I think we can say that ...

$$\text{ I am } f = \text{ Ker } g \text{ at } M$$ ...and that $$\text{ I am } 0 = \{ 0 \} = \text{ Ker } f$$ at $$M_1$$

so that $$f$$ is a monomorphism ... that is $$f$$ is injective ...and also $$\text{ I am } g = \text{ Ker } 0 = M_2$$ at $$M_2$$ ... ...

so that $$g$$ is an epimorphism ... that is $$g$$ is surjective ...Is that correct?

Peter
 
Yes, that is correct.

What can you say about $M_1$, $M$, and $M_2$. knowing that $g$ is surjective and $f$ is injective, use the first isomorphism theorem.
 
steenis said:
Yes, that is correct.

What can you say about $M_1$, $M$, and $M_2$. knowing that $g$ is surjective and $f$ is injective, use the first isomorphism theorem.
If the module homomorphism $$\phi \ : \ R \to S$$ is surjective then $$R/ \text{ Ker } \phi \cong S$$ ... so ... in our case ...
$$g$$ is a surjective homomorphism so ...

$$M/ \text{ Ker } g \cong M_2 $$

$$\Longrightarrow M/ \text{ I am } f \cong M_2$$
$$f$$ is surjective on $$\text{ I am } f$$ so ...

$$M_1 / \text{ Ker } f \cong \text{ I am } f$$

$$\Longrightarrow M_1/ \{ 0 \} \cong \text{ I am } f$$

... ... but not sure of the nature of $$M_1/ \{ 0 \}$$ and so not sure how to simplify it ...
Hope that is correct ...

Peter
 
$M_1/\{0\}=M_1$

$M/im f \cong \cdots$

MHB is slow, very slow ...
 
Last edited:
steenis said:
$M_1/\{0\}=M_1$

$M/im f = \cdots$

MHB is slow, very slow ...
Thanks steenis ...

Then we have ...

$$f$$ is surjective on $$\text{ I am } f$$ so ...

$$M_1 / \text{ Ker } f \cong \text{ I am } f$$

$$\Longrightarrow M_1/ \{ 0 \} \cong \text{ I am } f$$

$$\Longrightarrow M_1 \cong \text{ I am } f$$ ... ... but now ... can we conclude ...

$$M/ \text{ I am } f = M/M_1$$ ... ... but this assumes $$M_1 = \text{ I am } f $$ ... and we only have $$M_1 \cong \text{ I am } f$$ ...Is it OK to conclude $$M/ \text{ I am } f = M/M_1$$ ... ... ?Note that if we can conclude $$M/ \text{ I am } f = M/M_1$$ then we can say that ...

$$M/M_1 \cong M_2$$ ...
... can you help and clarify the above thinking ...

Peter
 
Actually $M/ \text{ I am } f \cong M/M_1$

Now you have enough to apply proposition 4.2.5. Can you do that?

Suppose $M$ is noetherian, we have $im f \leq M$ then ...
 
steenis said:
Actually $M/ \text{ I am } f \cong M/M_1$

Now you have enough to apply proposition 4.2.5. Can you do that?

Suppose $M$ is noetherian, we have $im f \leq M$ then ...
I think the argument to apply Proposition 4.2.5 so as to prove Corollary 4.2.6 from here would be something like the following ... $$M$$ is Noetherian $$\Longrightarrow \text{ I am } f$$, being a submodule of $$M$$, is Noetherian and $$M/ \text{ I am } f$$ is Noetherian (Proposition 4.2.5)


$$\Longrightarrow$$ $$M_1$$ is Noetherian and $$M/M_1$$ is Noetherian since $$M_1 \cong \text{ I am } f$$$$\Longrightarrow M_1$$ is Noetherian and $$M_2$$ is Noetherian since $$M/M_1 \cong M_2$$ ...
Is that correct ... ... ?

Peter
 
Last edited:
  • #10
That is correct, the converse goes in the same way.
 

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