Number of Orbits: Showing Equality of Group G and G_a

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the equality of the number of orbits of a finite group $G$ acting on the Cartesian product $\Omega \times \Omega$ and the number of orbits of the stabilizer subgroup $G_a$ acting on the set $\Omega$. The participants explore concepts related to group actions, transitivity, orbits, and the application of Burnside's lemma and the orbit-stabilizer theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that since $G$ acts transitively on $\Omega$, there is only one orbit on $\Omega$.
  • There is a discussion about the definition and implications of the orbit-stabilizer theorem and Burnside's lemma in relation to the number of orbits.
  • Some participants question whether $|\Omega^g|=|\Omega|$ holds due to the transitive action of $G$.
  • There is uncertainty regarding the generality of the statement that $g \cdot a = a$ for all $g \in G$.
  • Participants explore specific examples, such as the symmetric group $S_3$, to illustrate the concepts being discussed.
  • There is a clarification that elements of $G$ are permutations while elements of $\Omega$ are numbers, which affects how the group acts on the set.
  • Some participants express confusion about the definitions of $G1$ and $G_1$ and their relationship to the orbit and stabilizer concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the transitive action of $G$ on $\Omega$ and the implications of this for the number of orbits. However, there remains uncertainty and debate regarding specific applications of Burnside's lemma and the orbit-stabilizer theorem, as well as the definitions and implications of certain terms.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the assumptions made about the actions of group elements and the specific calculations of orbits. The discussion includes various interpretations of the definitions related to group actions and their consequences.

  • #31
mathmari said:
Could you maybe give me a hint how we could show the equality of the two number of orbits? (Wondering)
I got stuck right now...

I like Serena said:
Have you tried to apply the Orbit-stabilizer theorem and Burnside's lemma? (Wondering)
To be honest, I'm not quite getting the requested result yet, but it's a good exercise.

Best I can do, is to suggest to work out a couple of examples.
Such as $G=S_3$, $G=A_4$, and $G=S_4$.
That will give some insight in what's happening. (Thinking)

Beyond that, I'm stuck right now... (Worried)
 
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  • #32
Could we do the following?

Let $(a,b)G=\{(a,b)g: g\in G\}=\{(a\cdot g, b\cdot g):g\in G\}$, $(a,b)\in \Omega\times\Omega$ be an orbit of $G$ on $\Omega\times\Omega$.
We have that $(a,b)\in (a,b)G$ if $a=a\cdot g$ and $b=b\cdot g$, i.e., $g\in G_a=\{g\in G: g\cdot a=a\}$.
Also $(a,c)\in (a,b)G$ if $a=a\cdot g$ and $c=b\cdot g$, i.e., $c\in bG_a$, where $bG_a$ is an orbit of $G_a$ on $\Omega$.
We have that $b\in bG_a$.
That means that $(a,b)$ and $(a,c)$ belong to the same orbit of $G$ on $\Omega\times\Omega$ iff $b$ and $c$ belong to the same orbit of $G_a$ on $\Omega$.
Therefore, the number of orbits of $G$ on $\Omega\times\Omega$ is equal to the number of orbits of $G_a$ on $\Omega$.

Is this correct? (Wondering)

But now it depends on $a$.

What could we do? (Wondering)
 
  • #33
mathmari said:
Could we do the following?

Let $(a,b)G=\{(a,b)g: g\in G\}=\{(a\cdot g, b\cdot g):g\in G\}$, $(a,b)\in \Omega\times\Omega$ be an orbit of $G$ on $\Omega\times\Omega$.
We have that $(a,b)\in (a,b)G$ if $a=a\cdot g$ and $b=b\cdot g$, i.e., $g\in G_a=\{g\in G: g\cdot a=a\}$.
Also $(a,c)\in (a,b)G$ if $a=a\cdot g$ and $c=b\cdot g$, i.e., $c\in bG_a$, where $bG_a$ is an orbit of $G_a$ on $\Omega$.
We have that $b\in bG_a$.
That means that $(a,b)$ and $(a,c)$ belong to the same orbit of $G$ on $\Omega\times\Omega$ iff $b$ and $c$ belong to the same orbit of $G_a$ on $\Omega$.
Therefore, the number of orbits of $G$ on $\Omega\times\Omega$ is equal to the number of orbits of $G_a$ on $\Omega$.

Is this correct? (Wondering)

But now it depends on $a$.

What could we do? (Wondering)

Let's pick an example.
Say $G=S_3$, $\Omega=\{1,2,3\}$, and $a=1$.
Then $G_a = G_1 = \{(1), (23)\}$, which are the elements that leave $1$ unchanged.
And $aG = 1G = \Omega=\{1,2,3\}$. (Nerd)Then the sets of orbits are:
$$\Omega\times\Omega/G = \{1,2,3\}\times\{1,2,3\}/S_3 = \Big\{ \{ (1,1), (2,2), (3,3) \}, \quad\{ (1,2), (1,3), (2,1), (2,3), (3,1), (3,2) \} \Big\}$$
and:
$$\Omega/G_1 = \{1,2,3\}/\{(1), (23)\} = \Big\{ \{ 1 \}, \quad\{ 2, 3 \} \Big\}$$
So indeed, in both cases the number of orbits is $2$.
However, I don't see how considering that $(1,2)$ and $(1,3)$ are in the same orbit helps us if we only consider the permutations that leave $1$ unchanged. We don't even take into account that in this case for instance $(2,1)$ is in the same orbit. (Worried)Alternatively, Burnside tells us that:
$$|\Omega\times\Omega/G| = \frac{1}{|S_3|}\sum_{g\in S_3}|(\Omega\times\Omega)^g|
= \frac 16\left(|(\Omega\times\Omega)^{(1)}| + 3 |(\Omega\times\Omega)^{(23)}| + 2 |(\Omega\times\Omega)^{(123)}|\right)
= \frac 16\left(|\Omega\times\Omega| + 3 | \{ (1,1) \} | + 2 \cdot 0\right)
=2$$
And:
$$|\Omega/G_a| = \frac{1}{|G_1|}\sum_{h\in G_1}|\Omega^h| = \frac{1}{|\{(1), (23)\}|}\sum_{h\in \{(1), (23)\}}|\Omega^h|
= \frac 12\left(|\Omega^{(1)}| + |\Omega^{(23)}| \right)
= \frac 12\left(|\Omega| + | \{ 1 \} |\right)
=2$$

It seems we might have a match between the terms in both cases... (Thinking)
 
  • #34
I like Serena said:
Let's pick an example.
Say $G=S_3$, $\Omega=\{1,2,3\}$, and $a=1$.
Then $G_a = G_1 = \{(1), (23)\}$, which are the elements that leave $1$ unchanged.
And $aG = 1G = \Omega=\{1,2,3\}$. (Nerd)Then the sets of orbits are:
$$\Omega\times\Omega/G = \{1,2,3\}\times\{1,2,3\}/S_3 = \Big\{ \{ (1,1), (2,2), (3,3) \}, \quad\{ (1,2), (1,3), (2,1), (2,3), (3,1), (3,2) \} \Big\}$$
and:
$$\Omega/G_1 = \{1,2,3\}/\{(1), (23)\} = \Big\{ \{ 1 \}, \quad\{ 2, 3 \} \Big\}$$
So indeed, in both cases the number of orbits is $2$.
However, I don't see how considering that $(1,2)$ and $(1,3)$ are in the same orbit helps us if we only consider the permutations that leave $1$ unchanged. We don't even take into account that in this case for instance $(2,1)$ is in the same orbit. (Worried)

From the fact that the finite group $G$ acts transitively on the set $\Omega$, we have that there is just one orbit on $\Omega$, i.e. for $a\in \Omega$ and $\forall \omega_1\in \Omega, \exists g\in G$ such that $ga=\omega_1$.
So, $\forall \omega_1, \omega_2\in \Omega$ we have that $(\omega_1, \omega_2)=(ga, \omega_2)=(ga, gg^{-1}\omega_2)=g(a, g^{-1}\omega_2)$.

Is this correct? (Wondering)
 
  • #35
mathmari said:
From the fact that the finite group $G$ acts transitively on the set $\Omega$, we have that there is just one orbit on $\Omega$, i.e. for $a\in \Omega$ and $\forall \omega_1\in \Omega, \exists g\in G$ such that $ga=\omega_1$.
So, $\forall \omega_1, \omega_2\in \Omega$ we have that $(\omega_1, \omega_2)=(ga, \omega_2)=(ga, gg^{-1}\omega_2)=g(a, g^{-1}\omega_2)$.

Is this correct? (Wondering)

Since we have an (unusual) right action, let's make that:

$\forall \omega_1, \omega_2\in \Omega\, \exists g \in G$ such that $(\omega_1, \omega_2)=(ag, \omega_2)=(ag, \omega_2g^{-1}g)=(a, \omega_2g^{-1})g$
 

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