Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[nsaspook]

Conspiracy theorist have no parties or ideologies. They are united by the belief in supernatural powers of the chosen evil.

 

[turbo]

The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

 

[WhoWee]

The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

Not so fast turbo. You specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

I'll assume you're referring back to the days of Nixon - are you now suggesting President Obama's Administration would allow such practices? Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?

 

[turbo]

Not so fast turbo. You specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

I'll assume you're referring back to the days of Nixon - are you now suggesting President Obama's Administration would allow such practices? Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?

Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was.

 

[nsaspook]

I'm old and was there too, and it was given that agents were are every meeting or rally. The conspiracy is that deep down in a hole somewhere, men with black robes see these peaceful freedom fighters and send in specially trained agent provocateurs to destroy them from the inside out. Sure, you can also stop the heart of a goat by staring at it.

 

[mheslep]

The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there.

Saying something happened before as a substitute for a complete lack of evidence in the current case is conspiracy theory 101.

 

[dlgoff]

Does your "It happens all the time." comment mean now and since President Obama took office?

I'm sorry but this too much. Bring in Obama.

 

[WhoWee]

Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was.

Nixon seems to be the favorite target (rather than Johnson) - that is not the issue. I'm asking you to clarify your statement. Again, you stated:
""Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.""

Do you honestly believe this happens (federal agencies - not state or local) under the Obama Administration/Eric Holder Justice Department?

 

[gravenewworld]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-risingThis article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

 

[nsaspook]

...A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

It's more likely that the "new age" claptrap about 2012 will come true than anything productive from the current Occupy movement. I would suggest they declare victory and move indoors for the winter. This way they can keep the anarchists faction off the streets and not all die of pneumonia.

 

[Galteeth]

Saying something happened before as a substitute for a complete lack of evidence in the current case is conspiracy theory 101.

Would you like some evidence that intelligence infiltration into recent political movements is alive and well?

 

[edward]

Infiltration into opposing groups has always existed. No need to to think it has stopped now.

Infiltration by Police and FBI into political groups has been the norm for years. We probably have Homeland security looking at all groups.

TEA PARTY INFILTRATES OCCUPY LAS VEGAS:

Unfortunately, this has also allowed a Libertarian/Tea Party Militia to infiltrate and begin to dominate the movement. Jim Duensing, a Tea Party Express operative and Libertarian Congressional candidate, has become involved in the Occupy Las Vegas group and brought his like minded colleagues from his extremist fringe groups to events and meetings. These members act threatening at times and are very vocal about their right to free speech and their right to bare arms. At one point, the police were called to remove some members for participating in a threatening and aggressive manner.

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-las-vegas/tea-party-infiltrates-occupy-las-vegas

 

[WhoWee]

Infiltration into opposing groups has always existed. No need to to think it has stopped now.

Infiltration by Police and FBI into political groups has been the norm for years. We probably have Homeland security looking at all groups.

TEA PARTY INFILTRATES OCCUPY LAS VEGAS:

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-las-vegas/tea-party-infiltrates-occupy-las-vegas

Let's be clear edward - are you supporting turbo's specific claim? Turbo specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

Before you reply - please recall there were over 800 arrests in NY and the port was disrupted in Oakland. I think we need additional clarification from turbo - do you agree?

 

[Evo]

Let's be clear edward - are you supporting turbo's specific claim? Turbo specified:

"Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."

Before you reply - please recall there were over 800 arrests in NY and the port was disrupted in Oakland. I think we need additional clarification from turbo - do you agree?

Turbo doesn't have to defend an opinion, you know that.

 

[mheslep]

Would you like some evidence that intelligence infiltration into recent political movements is alive and well?

Of course the police and intelligence agencies infiltrate suspected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot" foreign political movements which is part of their job. There have been dozens of sexual assaults reported, theft, arson, and thousands of arrests so any diligent police department ought to have some undercover cops around. Intelligence gathering is not the objectionable claim. I want evidence of this:

...police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action.

 

[Evo]

Of course the police and intelligence agencies infiltrate suspected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot" foreign political movements which is part of their job. There have been dozens of sexual assaults reported, theft, arson, and thousands of arrests so any diligent police department ought to have some undercover cops around. Intelligence gathering is not the objectionable claim. I want evidence of this:

turbo said

Please don't be too surprised...

Let's please get back on topic.

 

[WhoWee]

Turbo doesn't have to defend an opinion, you know that.

In post 871 turbo said:
"Once again, the Tea Party rallies were day-long affairs populated by generally older people who were bused in and bused back home (thanks Koch brothers!) while the Occupy movements are ongoing long-term affairs. Please don't be too surprised if police and federal agencies are found to have planted agitators in these movements to try to stir up enough "justification" for police action."


I don't see any opinion labels - or support for the Koch brothers comment - and he didn't stop at this comment.
*******

Next, in post 877 turbo defended post 871 with this statement:my bold

"The idea that local, state, or federal agencies will infiltrate popular movements is not a conspiracy theory. It happens all the time. Sometimes as intelligence-gathering, and sometimes to incite behavior that can trigger police action. The problem was especially rife during the anti-war movement, as Don has mentioned. Yes, I am that old, and yes, I was there."


I'm sorry Evo, but this appears (to me) to be a statement of fact asserted by turbo - not opinion?

******

In post 879 turbo continues to defend his position with this:

"Do you think Obama controls how local and state police and all federal agencies conduct their intelligence-gathering functions? Now, who is the conspiracy-theorist? That Obama must be really busy pulling all those strings. Really!

And the anti-war movement didn't start under Nixon. I'm assuming that you weren't too politically-aware at the time. I was."


This response was intended - IMO - avoid supporting earlier comments and continues his assertions regarding "intelligence-gathering functions".
****

IMO - turbo has exceeded any accepted standard of "opinion" on this one and either needs to label it as an opinion or support.

 

[ginru]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-risingThis article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

Interesting read. Thanks for posting it. I also found his article on http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/09/19/the-old-man-and-the-sea-2011" to be pretty inspiring.

Even though these protests are being dismissed by many people, I believe this generation is only beginning to really explore their potential through an adept use of technology. They may come off as awkward and disorganized, but the Arab Spring has shown them what their generation can accomplish with technology to mobilize people in terms of physical presence.

This OWS movement will probably fail when they realize that simply gathering stubborn crowds aren't enough to dethrone an entrenched economic system. The important thing is that they learn from that eventual failure and then evolve their strategy towards the digital mobilization of income and purchase-power. That is when they'll really tap into their potential for changing the system.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-rising


This article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

Cool...

I will have to read that in the morning.

I was just telling someone about 20 minutes ago, that what is going on, is way past my comprehension level.

And I'm a self-proclaimed really smart person, that professes, to know nothing, in 30 plus languages...

I love my hobby.

 

[OmCheeto]

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/james-quinn/2011/11/03/bad-moon-rising


This article, for those with the fortitude to read the whole thing, is a summation of where we are in history and how we got here.We find ourselves now on the doorstep of changes too significant for most people to fathom. A generational and class conflict that will leave our country a much different place than anything any of us has ever known.

hmmm... You weren't kidding when you said it would take fortitude...

Just read the 1st half.

Sounds very much like what PF'ers have been saying since I've been here.

As a borderline boomer/gen x'er (like Obama), I tend to sit on the fence, and watch all of the cats and dogs fight, wondering what the hell all the commotion is about.

But I'm really tired at the moment, and haven't read the whole thing, so I'll just, right before I go to bed, post one of my silly musical interpretations, inspired by your silly article:

Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?

you let laws be your guide...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBG1j_flrg

good night, and god bless you all. :zzz:

 

[OmCheeto]

Finally, here is a great idea, only loosely related to the OWS movement, but unlike OWS it has a point, is focused, absent demagoguery, absent violence, and likely to be effective.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/11/03/can-credit-unions-make-a-success-of-bank-transfer-day/

I read up on that yesterday. I believe today is the day.

650,000 people have apparently moved their money from the big banks to local credit unions, with a net value of $4.5 billion.

According to http://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-transfer-day-marches-planned-banks-nationwide/story?id=14889051" , the number is up to 1 million people.

Then I checked out the market cap of the big banks:


Wells Fargo & Company...$133.91
JPMorgan Chase & Co...$129.05
Citigroup Inc...$88.71
Bank of America Corp...$65.77
Goldman Sachs Group, Inc...$53.13
Morgan Stanley...$32.23
Total......$502.80
amounts are in billions

Then I did the maths:

If 65,000,000 were to transfer their accounts, with a dollar for dollar correspondence with the 650k, it would amount to $450 billion.

I smiled.

Go OWS, Go!

 

[Evo]

Go OWS, Go!

But this has nothing to do with OWS, as a matter of fact the person that suggested this on Facebook has been emphatic that it is not related to OWS.

From your link

The 27-year-old art gallery owner from Los Angeles said she had never participated in any Occupy activities, and posted the following disclaimer on her website:

"While the Bank Transfer Day movement acknowledges the enthusiasm from Anonymous and Occupy Wall Street, the Bank Transfer Day movement was neither inspired by, derived from nor organized by Anonymous or the Occupy Wall Street movement, and the Bank Transfer Day movement does not endorse any activities conducted by Anonymous or Occupy Wall Street," the Facebook page for BankTransferDay.org states.

 

[WhoWee]

I can't think of anything more juvenile or irresponsible than moving your money from a large bank because some random group thinks it's a good idea. If it was effective it could caused a run on the banks and trigger federal intervention. Who would want a bank panic?

The reality is big banks have more locations - they're generally more convenient. I'm looking forward to hearing horror stories of how direct deposits were lost, delayed, or otherwise "messed up" because of this nonsense.

 

[Proton Soup]

credit unions tend to be local affairs. if people transfer their money, it would likely be right down the street.

convenience? pbbttt! damn kids! the world works mighty fine on checks, and *gasp*, CASH! why should people support the very institutions that are setting up fraudulent investment schemes and crashing the economy? these firms need to burn to the ground.

 

[WhoWee]

credit unions tend to be local affairs. if people transfer their money, it would likely be right down the street.

convenience? pbbttt! damn kids! the world works mighty fine on checks, and *gasp*, CASH! why should people support the very institutions that are setting up fraudulent investment schemes and crashing the economy? these firms need to burn to the ground.

Doesn't Bank of America have about 6,000 locations and 250,000 employees? My guess is most of these branches offer personal and business checking and savings accounts, make car loans, home loans, business loans, and operate 6 days per week. I doubt if more than 2 -5% of all offices have anything to do with non-retail activities.

 

[Proton Soup]

Doesn't Bank of America have about 6,000 locations and 250,000 employees? My guess is most of these branches offer personal and business checking and savings accounts, make car loans, home loans, business loans, and operate 6 days per week. I doubt if more than 2 -5% of all offices have anything to do with non-retail activities.

great. and when BoA goes down, they can have a fire sale. some of those branches can get bought up by credit unions, et al. actually, now that you mention it, this is a great way to pry the retail from the non-retail activities as you put it.

fwiw, my first bank account was with a savings and loan. when they went down, my account got purchased by a large regional bank. i got a letter in the mail, and very little changed except that my new banking location was a couple of blocks away.

oh, another thing. one problem with the economy right now (and i see this even in your posts, i think) is that banks just aren't lending. perhaps people getting funds into smaller banks will spur lending on the local levels (banks can lend several times their holdings, correct?) and get things moving again.

 

[OmCheeto]

But this has nothing to do with OWS, as a matter of fact the person that suggested this on Facebook has been emphatic that it is not related to OWS.

From your link

I disagree. The author of the idea may be simply distancing herself from the crack whores and heroin addicts who, like refrigerator magnets, have been attached to the movement.

I believe it has everything to do with the core concept behind OWS: The empowerment of average people to implement change.

I finished reading Graven's linked article this morning(It took all my willpower not to quote it every other paragraph), and ended up surfing to a couple of recent articles:

http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=24547#comment-93830"
Posted on 5th November 2011 by Administrator in Economy |Politics |Social Issues
If Zero Hedge is right about this, Monday could be one of the most chaotic days in the history of our country. I hope they are wrong, because financial markets will collapse as people sell hundreds of billions to meet their margin calls. Stocks would be crushed. But don’t think gold and silver would be excluded. People will sell everything to meet their margin requirements. There are still two days until Monday. I’ve got to believe the BIG BOYS (Bernanke and Geithner) would threaten the CME and make them reverse this decision. Who knows what is going on behind the scenes. Our financial system is based on trust. The MF Global fraud proves that no one can be trusted. No trust means the system will seize up due to no liquidity.

I have no idea whether this will be the beginning of the end. But I do think it would be prudent to withdraw some extra cash from the ATM this weekend, just in case.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest...ncial-system-necessary-and-positive#comments"
11/05/2011

The only way to clear a zombie economy is to write off uncollectable debt and liquidate all the assets, loans and hedges. That would collapse our financial system, but since it is the cause of our political and economic dysfunction, that would be the highest possible good and extremely positive.

There is a great final irony in the scare-mongering threats of the skimmers and their political toadies. If the taxpayers don't bail out the skimmers, then we'll have martial law by the weekend, the smouldering fires of Europe will rekindle into open warfare, and so on.

The irony is the propping up of a deeply, intrinsically pathological and destructive financial system is not saving the economy, it's the reason the economy is imploding. The Big Lie technique of propaganda is to reverse the polarity of reality: we are told up is down until we believe it.

We are told that liquidating the overhang of bad debt, leverage and hedges would "destroy the world as we know it." The truth is that keeping the zombie system from expiring and covering up the corruption with propaganda is what's actually destroying the world as we know it.

Thus the collapse of the current financial system of central banks, pathological Wall Street and insolvent banks would be the greatest possible good and the greatest possible positive for the global economy and its participants.

Unfortunately, I have little understanding of such things, so I can't really intelligently comment on them. But I always find the articles at Zero Hedge to be most entertaining.

 

[edward]

I think that the Occupy movement is a bit more organized than many people think.

They have a website for every location complete with with video feeds.

http://gibberbabble.com/local-occupy-groups

 

[Evo]

I think that the Occupy movement is a bit more organized than many people think.

They have a website for every location complete with with video feeds.

http://gibberbabble.com/local-occupy-groups

Yes, it was organized by a Canadian activist group called Adbusters.

 

[dlgoff]

Yes, it was organized by a Canadian activist group called Adbusters.

Adbusters? How do you know these things?

 

[turbo]

Adbusters? How do you know these things?

If you are a policy-geek, it's easy to track this stuff as it happens. As stuff falls off the radar, it can be a bit harder, since not all news outlets archive their earlier content once the "shine" has faded.

 

[Evo]

Adbusters? How do you know these things?

I read the news,

Occupy Wall Street (OWS) is an ongoing series of demonstrations in New York City based in Zuccotti Park in the Wall Street financial district. The protests were initiated by the Canadian activist group Adbusters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

 

[edward]

This is apparently the person who first influenced Occupy Wall Street?

http://www.thegic.org/video/the-man-who-organized-occupy-wall-street-adbusters

The Occupy hand signs...weird but it seems to be working...have the aliens invaded?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_hand_signals

 

[dlgoff]

I read the news,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

Thanks Evo. I'm going to have to get out of the house more.

And take advantage of this technology.

 

[gravenewworld]

Things just keep getting more and more interesting in the eToys case I mentioned way back ago:

For a decade now, I have been fighting Goldman Sachs, Mitt Romney's BAIN and their attorney's. Though I am in the valley of financial death's doorway, my hope is renewed with anxious fever of the mere possibility that justice may come. Goldman Sachs attorney's were forced in my case to confess to supplication of more than 15 written false affidavits to the court. After all, Martha Stewart went to jail for one verbal lie - shouldn't Goldman Sachs attorneys, as officers of the court, face much harsher penalties for lying to a court and deliberately killing a public company?
Though MNAT, (Goldman Sachs's Delaware law firm) has managed to thus far escape culpability for their scheme and artifices to defraud, they have bled somewhat, at times. Scott Bloch, the Department of Justice Office of Special Counsel witnessed the FBI raiding and arresting himfor destroying case files. We also found out that Goldman Sachs law firm was not being investigated by the Delaware US Attorney, despite confessions to acts of Perjury and Fraud, because the US Attorney was a former partner of Goldman Sachs law firm MNAT (see former US Attorney Colm Connolly's resume (here)). Though Colm Connolly has not been held accountable for this major ethical violation and betrayal of his oath and the public's trust, he was prevented from becoming a Delaware Federal District Court Judge (here)).

As is easy to see, Goldman Sachs walks around immune from prosecution or even verbal reference by the main stream media. We all have recently heard the issue of the $500 million dollar loan to the Solar company in Silicon Valley - Solyndra. What most are not aware of, is the fact that Goldman Sachs carved up the $10 million dollars in fees on obtaining Solyndra that loan. According to this Bloomberg story (here), Goldman Sachs was "the" financial advisor for Solyndra as the Bloombery article denotes that;

You would also think the firm's reputation police would put the kibosh on Solyndra, too. But Goldman, which Solyndra credited as the exclusive financial adviser on its Treasury loan application, kept the firm as a client through thick and thin.
But the bubble of protection for Goldman Sachs could be bursting. Despite the fact that the SEC is under investigation for extremely bad ethics in the Madoff debacle. Mary Schapiro, as head of the SEC, has just hired a Goldman Sachs's gal to head one of the SEC divisions. Everyone knows something funky is afoot when a person leaves a $50 million dollar per year job and goes into heading up a Government agency in charge of regulating securities transacted by Goldman Sachs - but we all sit idle by in abject curious silence watching.

Meanwhile, Goldman Sachs CEO Blankfein has deemed it appropriate to hire a personal criminal defense attorney, as is denoted by the Los Angeles Times story (here). Sachs CEO Blankfein purportedly has much to lose. But in the overall scheme of things, does he have any more to lose than you or I? If he loses $10 million here or there, he will not have another island in the Pacific. When you or I lose $10,000 - we lose our house and car. The news of Blankfein hiring a criminal attorney sent Goldman Sachs stock downward;

Investors were rattled by news that Blankfein had hired a lawyer. Goldman shares, which had barely moved all day before the news, plunged and finished the day down $5.25, or 4.7% at $106.51. The stock fell further in after-hours trading.
Goldman, the most envied name on Wall Street, has been under intense public scrutiny since the financial crisis because of the record profit it generated at a time when the national economy was still struggling.

Rolling Stone's Matt Taibbi reports that the SEC has been destroying files
Helping foster the civil unrest throughout America, on Wall Street and globally, is the fact that the powers that be keep rubbing our noses in the mud, while we are down and then talk to us as if we are stupid. When my face is full of the manure you are shoveling upon us - it is intolerable to expect my ears to be able to swallow your verbal crap too.
Fortunately, along with the citizen activists and journalists, including people like Larry and Mike at GoldmanSachs666.com , there's also radical nationally known journalists like Matt Taibbi, who has the tiger Goldman Sachs' by the tail and won't let them go. In one of Taibbi's more recent stories, he points out the fact that the SEC has been destroying case files for nearly 20 years. Including Madoff case files. In his story Matt Taibbi remarks that;

This is a different world, one far friendlier to lawbreakers, where even the suspicion of wrongdoing gets wiped from the record.
That, it now appears, is exactly how the Securities and Exchange Commission has been treating the Wall Street criminals who cratered the global economy a few years back. For the past two decades, according to a whistle-blower at the SEC who recently came forward to Congress, the agency has been systematically destroying records of its preliminary investigations once they are closed. By whitewashing the files of some of the nation's worst financial criminals, the SEC has kept an entire generation of federal investigators in the dark about past inquiries into insider trading, fraud and market manipulation against companies like Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank and AIG.

and Taibbi continued

With a few strokes of the keyboard, the evidence gathered during thousands of investigations "18,000 ... including Madoff," as one high-ranking SEC official put it during a panicked meeting about the destruction has apparently disappeared forever into the wormhole of history.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/29/1021278/-Its-Official-Goldman-Sachs-Rules?via=user
But yeah let's focus all of our attention on the protesters and not condemn the REAL criminals walking away completely free stealing millions of dollars from all of us.