News Occupy Wall Street protest in New-York

[bundd]

Please support your post.

**** my bad I had only seen the first page, didn't realize it was already 40 pages long, but still, things are garbagety and at least they are doing something.

 

[edward]

I provide job security and have had a very difficult past 3 years - it's never been more challenging to make a living in my 35 years experience.

Increases in utilities, fuel, minimum wage, HIPPA/MIPPA compliance, and new licensing requirements have driven costs up. My revenues dropped by approximately 65% at one point. Worse yet, Government mandated restrictions have cut future revenue streams by 50% in one major line of my business. Additionally, some of my clients have gone out of business because conventional business credit lines have disappeared. I even had a problem with a supplier that took my money and could not deliver as promised.

On top of problems with my own business - the line has been long of people showing up in need of help with their problems.

Given all of this - those aging hippies banging drums and college kids that have never tried to service a loan or make a payroll don't have a clue about the real world. IMO - all they want is to complain and get another handout. Again IMO - they're nothing but a group of whiny hipocrites waiting for someone to take care of them - and need to grow up.

There is the big disconnect. "Starting 35 year ago I did this or that and was successful". I personally started out 45 years ago and was very successful, but I could not do that now. Had you started your ventures in 2006 you would probably be filling for bankruptcy about now.

Millions upon millions of young Americans have completely lost faith in the U.S. economy and are mad as hell that their economic futures have been destroyed. The recent economic downturn has hit those under the age of 30 the hardest. Today, there are hordes of young people that should be entering their most productive years that are sitting home with nothing to do.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/ar...he-age-of-30-are-giving-up-on-the-u-s-economy

 

[OmCheeto]

Am I the only one who can't really comprehend how much money this is?

I'm going on 3 years, and still don't get it.

Re: A National Catastrophe
Sep26-08
...did someone hedge their funds on Jupiter real estate.

$455,000,000,000,000.00! Ah! hahahahahahaha!

Silly humans...

I even read a chicken example(I'm a bit simple minded and require simple explanations)

I found http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/07/derivatives_basics.asp#axzz1cHuLr7gU" incomprehensible.

When the word is "derivatives", most people are lucky if they can conjure up anything but an indistinct fog.

Derivatives are generally placed in the realm of advanced or technical investing, but there is no reason why they should remain a mystery to common investors. This article will use a simple story of a fictional farm to explore the mechanics of derivatives.

Sorry! I'm still in a fog.

Maybe http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/12/02/business/1247465942454/geithner-on-derivatives-cnbc.html?ref=derivatives" can shed some light on it.

I lost count of the number of times he used the word "Fraud".

 

[Evo]

There is the big disconnect. Starting 35 year ago I did this or that and was successful. I personally started out 45 years ago and was very successful, but I could not do that now. Had you started your ventures in 2006 you would probably be filling for bankruptcy about now.

Millions upon millions of young Americans have completely lost faith in the U.S. economy and are mad as hell that their economic futures have been destroyed. The recent economic downturn has hit those under the age of 30 the hardest. Today, there are hordes of young people that should be entering their most productive years that are sitting home with nothing to do.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/ar...he-age-of-30-are-giving-up-on-the-u-s-economy

Overpopulation. Too many people, not enough jobs, and then there are those that think they deserve a certain level of pay and would rather sit at home than work for less money. IMO.

 

[edward]

Overpopulation. Too many people, not enough jobs, and then there are those that think they deserve a certain level of pay and would rather sit at home then work for less money. IMO.

That is probably true to a certain extent. I think it is more about young people realizing that they will never have the opportunity to accomplish what their parents accomplished.

Then again this isn't just about potentially lazy young people. I know people of all ages who have lost everything.

Perhaps the difference in point of view could be whether or not a person has seen hard working family members totally devastated.

 

[Proton Soup]

we need to just build a big prison and put all the derivatives traders in it.

 

[edward]

we need to just build a big prison and put all the derivatives traders in it.

Stock in Corrections Corporation of America would soar.

http://quote.morningstar.com/Stock/s.aspx?t=CXW

 

[WhoWee]

There is the big disconnect. Starting 35 year ago I did this or that and was successful. I personally started out 45 years ago and was very successful, but I could not do that now. Had you started your ventures in 2006 you would probably be filling for bankruptcy about now.

That is a very astute and valid observation - IMO.

I'll cite 2 specific examples of my ventures that failed in that time frame.

The first was a production company focused on producing a cable television program for custom builders - funded by marketing co-ops (manufacturers and sub-contractors). At a total production and placement cost of $45k to $115k (depended upon specific TV market) there was a line of willing participants - especially as inventory of unsold new homes started to accumulate. The reality of a pending collapse became apparent as a few large and very successful builders ceased operations due to over-leveraging. Next, the smaller builders began to fail, sub-contractors failed, and all but essential manufacturers funds dried up and went away.

The second was a publishing venture. I secured the state-wide exclusive franchise/distribution rights to an industry specific magazine that was proven to work in 2 other regions (for this segment) and nationwide for 6 other industries. Each addition featured a prominent business on the cover, with photography, re-prints, and production costs borne by the suppliers of that business - along with additional advertising revenues. Let's just say the first marketing funds cut during a recession are print/magazine.

I didn't risk much capital in either venture. In a good economy, both ventures were proven winners - capable of returning 2,500% in the first year. However, in 2006 - 2008 they were both dismal failures.

I can accept those failures - they were limited risk start-ups. What bothers me more is a time proven business model with predictable income that suffered due to new regulations. Unfortunately, I can't elaborate.

 

[OmCheeto]

There is the big disconnect. Starting 35 year ago I did this or that and was successful. I personally started out 45 years ago and was very successful, but I could not do that now. Had you started your ventures in 2006 you would probably be filling for bankruptcy about now.



http://endoftheamericandream.com/ar...he-age-of-30-are-giving-up-on-the-u-s-economy

I think it may be the fault of the overachievers.

#1 Only 55.3% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 were employed last year. That was the lowest level that we have seen since World War II.

Unfortunately not. But it IS right next to the other job, an Albertsons in the same strip mall. So easy commute to either place = good for me.

Two jobs?

I know that there are a few other people at the forum who've claimed/who claim to do the work of 4 or 5 people.

I know I'm guilty of making the claim. Perhaps not here, but in that; "They'll freakin' know how much work I did for this place once I'm gone." kind of "salaried" way, that I spit out from time to time, in frustration.

But then again, I've been looking at my last 27 years as "job experience" in the expectations that I start a business when I retire in 975 days.

Accountant: Check!
Software Engineer: Check!
Budgeting: Check!
Customer Service: Check!
Employee Management: erm... I'll have to hire someone. (I've never had kids, and told them right from the get go, I was NOT the right person)
Mechanic: Check!
PR: Check!
Retirement Check in case none of this pans out: Check!
Having the house, cards, and truck paid off, just in case the retirement check doesn't show up one day: Priceless

(ps. Kids. Never ever ask your boss if you should put out more effort. It will just make him/her want to gag, as you play with your Ipod, looking for the next song. And you will never ever get another job at that company, as I have a big freakin' mouth)

 

[John Creighto]

Please support your post.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45015743?__source=google|editorspicks|&par=google

"Why on Earth do regulators go along with this secrecy?

This is why I think that the whole debate of more regulation vs less regulation is a bit of a red herring. Obama's response to wall street corruption was not to prosecute people for fraud but to pass dob-frank. One effect of dob-frank was to exempt the SEC from the freedom of information act in some cases.

 

[mheslep]

The derivatives market in the United States alone is now estimated to be worth about $600 trillion.

False.

 

[Pythagorean]

Who the hell can afford to take time off work to protest anyway?

I may be in the 99%, but I'm also part of a more exclusive club on the opposite side of the bell-curve from the 1%; I work 12 hours a day, trying to make the most of american tax dollars, and I still need welfare to keep my family healthy.

 

[John Creighto]

UNBELIEVABLE.

Wall Street is at it again. BofA just dumped $75 trillion in potentially toxic assets onto US tax payers:http://seekingalpha.com/article/301...atives-on-u-s-taxpayers-with-federal-approvalThis is exactly why we need more protests to reinstate Glass Steagall as fast as possible.

As far as I understand the FDIC is only responsible for insuring deposits. I agree that the federal government shouldn't be responsible for insuring this type of risk but I doubt the subsidiary has any where near 75 trillion dollars in deposits so there is at least an upper limit on the risk to tax payers. What I am unclear on is what percentage of the risk BofA has to hold on to. I think for balance sheet purposes Dodd-frank requires them to hold onto 5% of the credit risk for a loan (I'm not sure if the same applies to derivatives). However, in reality if they wrote a contract and their subsidiary does not have the resources to pay then wouldn't they still be obligated to pay?

 

[John Creighto]

Who the hell can afford to take time off work to protest anyway?

I may be in the 99%, but I'm also part of a more exclusive club on the opposite side of the bell-curve from the 1%; I work 12 hours a day, trying to make the most of american tax dollars, and I still need welfare to keep my family healthy.

Income wise I'm In the top 10% in Canada and me and my girlfriend still find it difficult to afford a two bedroom apartment. If I wasn't paying over $600 a month on my student loan and a large amount of taxes it would be much easier. I find it hard to see the evidence of the prosperity we supposedly have.

 

[Pythagorean]

i'm still going to school, so my loans are in a grace period until I have a PhD (the "union card" of academics). At that point, my stipend will be big enough to be taxed and I'll pretty much be in your situation as I pay off my loans.

Or Obama could bail me out. I mean, I don't know... when I was a commercial fisherman, gov't took 1/3 of my taxes. They charged me like a farmer, but without the subsidizing kickbacks. That was about 50k in four years that went to the government just for being a citizen of the USA.

 

[edward]

Here's more from heavy weight Bill Black about it:

http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/10/not-with-bang-but-whimper-bank-of.html

and here is the piece he recommends to read:

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011...mpany-to-taxpayer-backstopped-depositors.html



And BoA isn't the only one. JP Morgan now has $80 trillion associated with their FDIC insured counterparts and banks in total now have $200 trillion worth of derivative risk on the tax payer's backs. This should be absolutely infuriating to everyone. Death of Glass Steagall was death of America. The head honchos at these places should be arrested and thrown in jail under RICO laws. They're essentially cartels or a financial mafia running and tanking our entire financial system. When money is being made they're the ones that reap the vast majority of it, but when things go south, they make everyone pay.

Derivatives are pervasive in the market place, There are even weather derivatives.

http://new.evomarkets.com/index.php?page=Weather_Markets-Markets-Market_Players

Wow weather derivatives were created by the Koch brothers.

http://thinkprogress.org/report/koch-oil-speculation/

This whole thing has evolved into one giant casino for the wealthy.

 

[edward]

i'm still going to school, so my loans are in a grace period until I have a PhD (the "union card" of academics). At that point, my stipend will be big enough to be taxed and I'll pretty much be in your situation as I pay off my loans.

Or Obama could bail me out. I mean, I don't know... when I was a commercial fisherman, gov't took 1/3 of my taxes. They charged me like a farmer, but without the subsidizing kickbacks. That was about 50k in four years that went to the government just for being a citizen of the USA.

Both of those things will be on the OWS agenda when the time is right.

 

[OmCheeto]

The derivatives market in the United States alone is now estimated to be worth about $600 trillion.

False.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/198197-why-derivatives-caused-financial-crisis"
April 12, 2010


http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/demeritt061608.html"
June 16, 2008

Somewhere http://hawaiinewsdaily.com/2011/07/the-horrific-derivatives-bubble-that-could-one-day-destroy-the-entire-world-financial-system/" ?

July 13, 2011
Today, the worldwide derivatives market is approximately 20 times the size of the entire global economy. Because derivatives are so unregulated, nobody knows for certain exactly what the total value of all the derivatives worldwide is, but low estimates put it around 600 trillion dollars and high estimates put it at around 1.5 quadrillion dollars.
...
The truth is that we should have never allowed world financial markets to become a giant casino.
But we did.
Soon enough we will all pay the price, and when that disastrous day comes, most Americans will still not understand what is happening.

I spent the whole freakin' day studying derivatives, and still don't understand them.

Perhaps this guy was right:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/198197-why-derivatives-caused-financial-crisis"

A derivative is NOT an asset. It’s, in reality, nothing, just an imaginary security of no tangible value that banks/ financial institutions trade as a kind of “gentleman’s bet” on the value of future risk or securities.

Let me give you an example. Let’s say you and I want to bet on whether our neighbor Joe will default on his mortgage. Is the bet an asset? Does it have any real value? Both counts register a definite “no.”

How the hell can a whole lot of nothing be worth between $600 trillion and $1500 trillion dollars?

Is this why the aliens don't come and visit?

 

[rootX]

Income wise I'm In the top 10% in Canada and me and my girlfriend still find it difficult to afford a two bedroom apartment. If I wasn't paying over $600 a month on my student loan and a large amount of taxes it would be much easier. I find it hard to see the evidence of the prosperity we supposedly have.

Are you sure you are top 10%?

I have never been in top 10% but I can pay all my school loan right now and still graduate from the school with some savings.

 

[rootX]

As for personal opinion I think 99% was the worst campaign youths ever pulled out. Most of my friends, who often support many silly causes, are not supporting these 99%.

 

[edward]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/198197-why-derivatives-caused-financial-crisis"
April 12, 2010


http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/demeritt061608.html"
June 16, 2008

Somewhere http://hawaiinewsdaily.com/2011/07/the-horrific-derivatives-bubble-that-could-one-day-destroy-the-entire-world-financial-system/" ?



I spent the whole freakin' day studying derivatives, and still don't understand them.

Perhaps this guy was right:



How the hell can a whole lot of nothing be worth between $600 trillion and $1500 trillion dollars?

Is this why the aliens don't come and visit?

OM have you ever seen the documentary: Quants the Alchemists of Wall Street? It was made by a Dutch production company. It's 47 minutes.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/quants-alchemists-wall-street/

 

[OmCheeto]

Derivatives are pervasive in the market place, There are even weather derivatives.

http://new.evomarkets.com/index.php?page=Weather_Markets-Markets-Market_Players

Wow weather derivatives were created by the Koch brothers.

Weather derivatives?

http://thinkprogress.org/report/koch-oil-speculation/

This whole thing has evolved into one giant casino for the wealthy.

Wow. If half of that is true...

Charles Koch, the CEO of Koch Industries who is worth a reported $22 billion, likes to call his business an example of something he describes as the “Science of Liberty.” In reality, his company’s deregulation crusade has contributed to rolling blackouts, consolidation and monopolies in financial markets, and economy-wrecking oil price spikes. In comments to the CFTC, the reform-minded nonprofit Better Markets noted that, “the history of these markets is a history of anti-competitive, self-interested, predatory conduct that serves the interest of the exclusive few at the expense of the many and the system as a whole.”

bolding mine

the "Science of Liberty"

hmmm...

I read something at the end of the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion" article the other day that kind of reminds me of this:

Ultimately, however, the uprising was the climax of a series of events of the 1780s that convinced a powerful group of Americans that the national government needed to be stronger so that it could create uniform economic policies and protect property owners from infringements on their rights by local majorities. Men like Charles Harding helped to spread concepts created during Shays' Rebellion. These ideas stemmed from the fear that a private liberty, such as the secure enjoyment of property rights, could be threatened by public liberty - unrestrained power in the hands of the people. James Madison addressed this concept by stating that "Liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as the abuses of power."

bolding, once again, mine

 

[OmCheeto]

OM have you ever seen the documentary: Quants the Alchemists of Wall Street? It was made by a Dutch production company. It's 47 minutes.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/quants-alchemists-wall-street/

Nope. But after 2 minutes, I'm already hungry.

 

[WhoWee]

Derivatives are pervasive in the market place, There are even weather derivatives.

http://new.evomarkets.com/index.php?page=Weather_Markets-Markets-Market_Players

Weather impacts the economy - insurance related to non-catastrophic weather events is not new. I worked on a project about 10 years ago to insure car washes for lost income on rainy days.

 

[edward]

Nope. But after 2 minutes, I'm already hungry.

Hungry for oysters? lol

I read a version of Shays rebellion that stated that at one point there were so many men in debtors prison that the state could not defend itself against an Indian uprising. That was one thing that brought about change.

 

[John Creighto]

Are you sure you are top 10%?

I have never been in top 10% but I can pay all my school loan right now and still graduate from the school with some savings.

I recall reading today that if you make over 65 000 per year you are in the top 10% in Canada. That is only 31.25 per hour which a what a lot of people make who do trades. We pay about 1100 a month in rent and car costs are about 600 a month. Perhaps you were able to spend less or earn more while at school but it is not uncommon to finish school with a large debt especially if one doesn't live at home.

I was able to live on a cheaper income as I was unemployed and underemployed for the first two years of the downturn but that was with eating a lot of bread, sharing a place with two other people, and not being able to pay my student loan. I know someone can survive on a low income but even what is considered quite a good income can still mean quite a modest lifestyle.

 

[edward]

Weather impacts the economy - insurance related to non-catastrophic weather events is not new. I worked on a project about 10 years ago to insure car washes for lost income on rainy days.

Weather insurance has been around forever. Not so with weather derivatives they originated with Koch and Enron in 1997.

 

[LaurieAG]

the "Science of Liberty"

hmmm...

That James Madison is a real gem OmCheeto.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/jamesmadison/

In Congress, he helped frame the Bill of Rights and enact the first revenue legislation. Out of his leadership in opposition to Hamilton's financial proposals, which he felt would unduly bestow wealth and power upon northern financiers, came the development of the Republican, or Jeffersonian, Party.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Madison

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

 

[WhoWee]

Weather insurance has been around forever. Not so with weather derivatives they originated with Koch and Enron in 1997.

I think Bill Clinton and Congress deserve the real credit - not Koch.

Evolution Markets touts their executive prowess with this information:
http://www.wrma.org/wrma/library/file382.pdf

"Joining Mr. Young on the weather desk is Nicholas Ernst a specialist in the development of
emerging markets and risk management. Mr. Ernst is a Director of Weather Markets at
Evolution Markets. Prior to joining Evolution Markets, Mr. Ernst was with ENRON
Corporation, where he established the company's market-making capabilities in the newly
developed trading market for flat-rolled carbon steel products. Prior to ENRON, he was a
Risk Specialist for Bethlehem Steel Corp., where he managed the company's price exposure
for base metals purchases, as well as energy purchases.
“We are very pleased to have Bill and Nick as the basis of our weather desk,” said Mr. Ertel.
“They have a strong knowledge of the weather market’s fundamentals, as well as excellent
experience in developing commodity markets.”
The over-the-counter market in weather derivatives began in 1996 when Koch Energy (now
Entergy-Koch) and Enron completed a heating degree-day (HDD) swap for the winter of
1997 in Milwaukee, WI. Principals from Evolution Markets facilitated this landmark trade.
The market continues to demonstrate impressive growth. According to a Price Waterhouse
urvey, the market has since grown into a $4.2 billion notional market value with
approximately 4,000 contracts traded in 2001. "

They are the market makers (not Koch).my bold
http://new.evomarkets.com/index.php?page=Catastrophe_Derivatives

"Evolution Markets is a leader in the development of the catastrophe derivatives market, which provides innovative, market-based tools for insurance and financial companies seeking to manage weather risk. The firm's brokers assisted in the launch of this global market, and Evolution Markets is committed to its growth through market transparency, counterparty education, and efficient trade execution."

 

[OmCheeto]

Hungry for oysters? lol

Always. Fortunately I had shrimp in the freezer as a substitute.

I read a version of Shays rebellion that stated that at one point there were so many men in debtors prison that the state could not defend itself against an Indian uprising. That was one thing that brought about change.

hmmm... If the 1.5 quadrillion dollars worth of notional derivatives comes due one day, is the world going to put a big fence around us, and tell us we're in debtors jail?

I did finish the video.

I took a few notes. All were quotes by Paul Wilmott.

19:35 "Taking risks with other people's money"

He said it was OK for people to take risks for profit. It's just not OK to do that with other people's money.

32:50 "Economists. They think they are scientists."

I laughed out loud when he said that. I said something very similar a few years back. https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2318849&postcount=106", still stands in my mind.

35:25 "If people don't complain now, then, it serves them right, when the next financial crisis happens".

This comment struck me as a predictive support for the OWS crowd.

39:15 "Now we are talking about trading at the speed of light".

I remember when I first discovered high frequency trading. I didn't like the sounds of it. Still don't. I think I learned it all from http://www.zerohedge.com/taxonomy/term/140" . They don't like it either:

9/13/2011
and a whole lot of other "experts" ridiculed our views of HFT as liquidity extracting, because yes they are, rebate chasing, sub penny frontrunning parasites