On limit of function and proof of chain rule

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of limits of functions, particularly in the context of proving the chain rule in calculus. Participants explore definitions, continuity, and differentiability of functions, as well as the implications of these properties on limits and derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines the limit of a function at a point and discusses continuity and differentiability in relation to the chain rule.
  • Another participant questions the validity of stating that a value s approaches f(x) without proper context, providing a counterexample to illustrate the point.
  • A participant attempts to prove the chain rule using limits and expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their proof, suggesting that the limit of a composition of functions may not directly follow from the limit of the outer function.
  • There is a clarification regarding the nature of s as an element of the interval I, with a focus on its relationship to the range of f.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of certain statements regarding limits and the implications for the chain rule. There is no consensus on the correctness of the proof presented, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the interpretation of limits in this context.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of definitions and the specific conditions under which limits and continuity apply. There are unresolved questions about the assumptions made in the proof attempts and the implications of continuity on the behavior of functions.

jwqwerty
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Definition of 'Limit of function (f) at x=p'

Let E be domain of f and p be a limit point of E. Let Y be the range of f.

If there exists q∈E such that for all ε>0 there exists δ>0 such that for all t∈E for which d(t,p)<δ implies d(f(t),q)<ε. Then we say that f(t)->q as t->p.

1) Suppose f is continuous on [a,b] and g is defined on an interval I which contains the range of f.
Since f is continuous on [a,b] for any x in [a,b], as t->x, f(t)->f(x).
Let s be an element of I. Then can we say that as t->x. s->f(x)?

2) Suppose f is continuous on [a.b], f'(x) exists at some point x in [a,b]. g is defined on an
interval I which contains the range of f and g is differentiable at the point f(x).
This is what i want to prove: g'(f(x))=g'(f(x))f'(x)

This is what i have tried:
[g(f(t))-g(f(x))]/[t-x]= [g(f(t))-g(f(x))]/[f(t)-f(x)] * [f(t)-f(x)]/[t-x]
Letting t->x, we see that f(t)->f(x). Thus, g'(f(x))= g'(f(x)) * f'(x)
Is something wrong with this proof?
 
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jwqwerty said:
1) Suppose f is continuous on [a,b] and g is defined on an interval I which contains the range of f.
Since f is continuous on [a,b] for any x in [a,b], as t->x, f(t)->f(x).
Let s be an element of I. Then can we say that as t->x. s->f(x)?
It doesn't make sense to write s→f(x). For example, if I=[0,4], s=3 and f(x)=5, this would say that 3→5.

jwqwerty said:
2) Suppose f is continuous on [a.b], f'(x) exists at some point x in [a,b]. g is defined on an
interval I which contains the range of f and g is differentiable at the point f(x).
This is what i want to prove: g'(f(x))=g'(f(x))f'(x)

This is what i have tried:
[g(f(t))-g(f(x))]/[t-x]= [g(f(t))-g(f(x))]/[f(t)-f(x)] * [f(t)-f(x)]/[t-x]
Letting t->x, we see that f(t)->f(x). Thus, g'(f(x))= g'(f(x)) * f'(x)
Is something wrong with this proof?
This is a good way to guess what the result will be, but it's not a proof. To say that ##f(t)\to f(x)## as ##t\to x## is to say that f has a limit at x, and that limit is f(x). This is a statement about f, so you can't immediately conclude that it ensures that ##\frac{g\circ f-g(f(x))}{f-f(x)}## has a limit at x.
 
Fredrik said:
It doesn't make sense to write s→f(x). For example, if I=[0,4], s=3 and f(x)=5, this would say that 3→5.

In here, I must contain the range of f, thus f(x) cannot be 5. And also, s does not refer to specific number in I, like t in t->x
 
jwqwerty said:
In here, I must contain the range of f, thus f(x) cannot be 5.
You're right. My mistake. So let me correct my example: If I=[0,6], s=3 and f(x)=5, this would say that 3→5

jwqwerty said:
And also, s does not refer to specific number in I, like t in t->x
You said "Let s be an element of I". That comment makes it a specific number in I (assuming that I is a set of numbers).
 

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