Oriented angle between vectors

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the "oriented" angle between two vectors, specifically in a clockwise direction. Participants explore various mathematical approaches to determine this angle, including the use of dot and cross products, as well as the concept of the Clifford product.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant inquires about how to find the oriented angle between two vectors, noting that the conventional dot product does not suffice for their needs.
  • Another participant suggests using the cross product in a three-dimensional context by appending a zero z-coordinate to each vector.
  • A later reply challenges the sufficiency of the cross product alone, arguing that it does not distinguish between angles like 10 degrees and 170 degrees, which are different in orientation.
  • This participant proposes that both the dot product and cross product should be combined to form the "Clifford product" or "geometric product," which captures the full relationship between the vectors.
  • Specific calculations are provided, showing how to express the vectors in terms of an orthonormal basis and how to derive the oriented angle from the components of the Clifford product.
  • The calculations suggest that the cosine and sine of the angle can be derived from the dot and cross product components, respectively.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on a single method for finding the oriented angle. Multiple approaches are discussed, and there is contention regarding the sufficiency of the cross product alone.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the dimensionality of the vectors and the mathematical properties of the products used. There are unresolved steps in the calculations and dependencies on the definitions of the products involved.

uwowizard
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"oriented" angle between vectors

Say, we are given two vectors v1(1,2) and v2(2,1). Question - how to find an "oriented" angle in clockwise direction between the given vectors?

Note, the angle between v1 and v2 will be equal to (360-(the angle between v2 and v1))

Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

PS: I know that one can use the dot product to find the "non-oriented" angle between vectors, but it doesn't really work in my case
 
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Pretend you are in 3 dimensions (append a zero z coordinate to each vector) and use the cross product.
 


Good idea, Stephen. Thanks.
 


The cross product won't give you the full answer. For example, it would give you the same "angle" for 10 degrees and 170 degrees, though they're clearly different angles.

Really, you can't do it without both the dot product and the cross product (or something like it). You need to add them both together. When you do, it makes a new kind of product called the "Clifford product" or "geometric product" -- just like when you add a real number and an imaginary number, it makes a new kind of number called a complex number.

This "Clifford product" contains the full information about how the two vectors relate, whereas its dot product and cross product "parts" each give only a piece of the puzzle. Again, this is just like with complex numbers: the real and imaginary parts give only partial information, but the real power comes when you treat the complex number as a unified entity.

Let's get specific. Write your vectors v1 and v2 in terms of an orthonormal basis, (e_x, e_y):
v_1 = x_1e_x + y_1e_y
v_2 = x_2e_x + y_2e_y
(i.e. x_1 is the x-component of vector 1, and so on.) The angle you're looking for is just the product of the vectors v_1 and v_2, as we'll see in a moment. To multiply the vectors, we first need to learn how to multiply the basis vectors they're composed of.

The rule for multiplying two of the same vector is simple: because they are orthonormal, we just get 1:
e_x e_x = 1
Multiplying two different basis vectors is where your requested orientation comes in. By "e_xe_y", we mean:
  • the plane spanned by e_x and e_y, with
  • the orientation turning e_x into e_y.
(Notice this last bit implies that e_xe_y = -e_ye_x.)

We're almost ready to calculate our angle. But first, remember that both the dot and cross products are proportional to the magnitude of the vectors. If we want to get just the angle part, we'll need to divide them both by the magnitudes. In your example, both vectors have the same magnitude: |v_1| = \sqrt{v_1 \cdot v_1} = \sqrt{2^2 + 1^2} = \sqrt{5}, and same for |v_2|.

Now, let's calculate that angle!
<br /> \begin{align}<br /> \angle(v_1,v_2) &amp;= \frac{v_1 v_2}{|v_1||v_2|} \\<br /> &amp;= \frac{(x_1e_x + y_1e_y) (x_2e_x + y_2e_y)}{\sqrt{5}\sqrt{5}} \\<br /> &amp;= (x_1x_2e_x^2 + x_1y_2e_xe_y + y_1x_2e_ye_x + y_1y_2e_y^2)/5 \\<br /> &amp;= ([x_1x_2 + y_1y_2] + [x_1y_2-x_2y_1]e_xe_y)/5<br /> \end{align}<br />
Notice the first term in square brackets looks just like the dot product, so it must be telling us \cos\theta. Similarly, the second term looks just like the cross product, so it's telling us \sin\theta. Plug in your values to get:
<br /> \begin{align}<br /> \cos\theta &amp;= \frac{4}{5} \\<br /> \sin\theta &amp;= - \frac{3}{5}<br /> \end{align}<br />
Solve these equations to get your oriented angle. Try it out for a few examples! (Notice that the orientation is given in terms of e_xe_y. In other words, positive angles mean you're turning in the same direction that turns e_x to e_y.)

I hope you find this helpful!
 

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