Outrageous Injustice: Saudi Woman Sentenced to Jail, Lashes

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A 19-year-old Saudi woman was sentenced to six months in jail and 200 lashes for being in a car with an unrelated male when she was gang-raped, highlighting the strict enforcement of gender segregation laws in Saudi Arabia. The judiciary defended the verdict, stating that the woman violated Islamic law, while the Ministry of Justice implied her punishment was increased due to her speaking out to the media. Discussions in the forum centered on the perceived injustice of punishing a rape victim and the broader implications of cultural and moral relativism in legal systems. Critics condemned the Saudi justice system as barbaric and outdated, contrasting it with Western legal standards where such punishments would be unthinkable. The case raises significant questions about the intersection of cultural norms, justice, and women's rights.
  • #31
Witch burning is a bad example. But it still suits the point I'm making. I think it's safe to say that there is a right and wrong way of implementing justice. And I have every right to judge the way justice is being carried out. I resort to blanket judgments like this when even on the surface it's clearly wrong. But that's only according to me, of course.

And a few others here, too.
 
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  • #32
DaveC426913 said:
Was this a Freudian slip or do you really believe that it is "we" who do the judging, and it is "other cultures" that are judged?

It's very easy to say, after-the fact, that you "didn't really mean it that way", isn't it?

Eh? I don't understand what you mean by this.
 
  • #33
Mallignamius said:
Witch burning is a bad example. But it still suits the point I'm making. I think it's safe to say that there is a right and wrong way of implementing justice.
Really? How can that be true and it be subjective at the same time?
 
  • #34
Mallignamius said:
Eh? I don't understand what you mean by this.
Reread your post. You said we will do the "judging" and other cultures will do the "being judged".

As I said in post 26:
...deep-down, we do not treat other cultures with the respect we demand for our own.
 
  • #35
Dave, I noticed you conveniently bypassed my post.

Evo said:
People arent sentenced to flogging in the US.

Women aren't treated like cattle (or worse) in the US.
It also looks like you've forgotten this is the 21st century since you keep referring to how things were done 400-500 years ago.
 
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  • #36
DaveC426913 said:
Really? How can that be true and it be subjective at the same time?

"I judge this to be true."

Isn't that how a court system is designed?
 
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  • #37
DaveC426913 said:
Reread your post. You said we will do the "judging" and other cultures will do the "being judged".

Yeah, so? What I don't understand is what you're getting at by this.
 
  • #38
Evo said:
Dave, I noticed you conveniently bypassed my post.
It wasn't convenient, I just didn't have anything to say becasue I'm not sure what your point is.

If I were to guess, I'd interpolate that what you object to is not that she was punished but how she was punished.
 
  • #39
Mallignamius said:
"I judge this to be true."

Isn't that how a court system is designed?
No.

Closer: we, as a people believe that, in our best interest, it is true.
 
  • #40
DaveC426913 said:
It wasn't convenient, I just didn't have anything to say becasue I'm not sure what your point is.

If I were to guess, I'd interpolate that what you object to is not that she was punished but how she was punished.
No, it's obvious from my post that I object to both.

Please stop trying to derail this thread with meaningless references to atrocities of hundreds of years ago. We're talking about now.

We're talking about atrocities happening NOW under the guise of religion. If you want to tell us why it's ok that women have no rights in some countries, let's hear why you would defend that women are less than human.
 
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  • #41
DaveC426913 said:
No.

Closer: we, as a people believe that, in our best interest, it is true.

And that's not subjective?
 
  • #42
Mallignamius said:
Yeah, so? What I don't understand is what you're getting at by this.
: blinks audibly :
: pauses :
: blinks audibly again :

Are you telling me that you don't see anything wrong with one culture setting themselves up as the judge of other cultures?
 
  • #43
Mallignamius said:
And that's not subjective?
It means that those who are affected by the laws (as a people) are those who make the laws (as a people).

This is how a society keeps checks and balances on itself.
 
  • #44
DaveC426913 said:
: blinks audibly :
: pauses :
: blinks audibly again :

Are you telling me that you don't see anything wrong with one culture setting themselves up as the judge of other cultures?

No, I don't. Now, I'm not suggesting an active intervention. But what's wrong with looking at another culture and saying, "that's just wrong"? Do we not need to examine how other peoples conduct themselves and compare results? It seems to me that judging another legal system is a reasonable means of assessing where we are and how we could improve. Otherwise, it feels like being a bit more in the dark.
 
  • #45
DaveC426913 said:
It means that those who are affected by the laws (as a people) are those who make the laws (as a people).

This is how a society keeps checks and balances on itself.

But they're still judging things, interpreting results, gauging successes. I mean, he's called a "judge." And he's determining in his best judgment whether something is true.

I don't see a difference.
 
  • #46
Evo said:
No, it's obvious from my post that I object to both.
The trouble is, it's not so obvious. I'm trying to tease out of broad statements exactly what the objections are.

There has been virtually no discussion in this entire thread (and I don't mean just me) about the meoth of punishment, evidence that it was not an issue on most poster's minds.

Please stop trying to derail this thread with meaningless references to atrocities of hundreds of years ago. We're talking about now.
Whoa Whoa. Me? I'm not. I didn't raise the witch hunt thing. I refuted it.

If you want to tell us why it's ok that women have no rights in some countries, let's hear why you would defend that women are less than human.
Show, using the evidence in the article being discussed, that women "have no rights" and are "less than human". If you step outside the article for your points, I will cry "straw man".


And again, I don't disagree that a terrible thing is happening here, I just don't believe that kneejerk reactions and broad judgement do anything but weaken the issue.
 
  • #47
Mallignamius said:
No, I don't. Now, I'm not suggesting an active intervention. But what's wrong with looking at another culture and saying, "that's just wrong"? Do we not need to examine how other peoples conduct themselves and compare results? It seems to me that judging another legal system is a reasonable means of assessing where we are and how we could improve. Otherwise, it feels like being a bit more in the dark.
Sure. Does it work both ways? Is it OK for other cultures to look West and say "that's just wrong!"

Cuz, that's what they've been screaming for decades...
 
  • #48
OK, I've got to go home. Doing this at work gets me fired too much. It'll take me a half hour or an hour.

DON'T ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING INTERESTING!
 
  • #49
DaveC426913 said:
Sure. Does it work both ways? Is it OK for other cultures to look West and say "that's just wrong!"

Cuz, that's what they've been screaming for decades...

I certainly hope they do. And they do. But how would improvement eventually come forth if we (and they) just ignored what they see as atrocities? To not even look at each other and not examine how the other does things can't lead to much progress.

DaveC426913 said:
OK, I've got to go home. Doing this at work gets me fired too much. It'll take me a half hour or an hour.

DON'T ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING INTERESTING!
:-p
sorry, just saw this after posting my reply. I'll shut up now.
 
  • #50
DaveC426913 said:
The trouble is, it's not so obvious. I'm trying to tease out of broad statements exactly what the objections are.
From this you can't find anything obvious?

Evo said:
People arent sentenced to flogging in the US.

Women aren't treated like cattle (or worse) in the US.


Objection 1) FLOGGING

Objection 2) Women aren't treated as equal human beings, they have virtually no rights.

Show, using the evidence in the article being discussed, that women "have no rights" and are "less than human". If you step outside the article for your points, I will cry "straw man".
That a woman is not allowed to be alone with a man that is not a relative, no matter how innocent. It's not just frowned upon, it's a crime punishable by flogging and prison! A man with a woman that is not a relative, will not be punished. And that's just in this article. Want to start a discussion on the lack of women's right in Islamic countries?
 
  • #51
Evo said:
This is wrong, just because it's part of their religion, doesn't make it right.
I believe the morality in question can be seen by them as literally equal to religion, and is therefore morally right.

You know what I say? I say Israeli commandos, at 3 am, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HALO" parachute jump into the prison, rescue her and radio for stealth helicopter, and bring her to Israel. See if her opinion on things changes just a bit.
 
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  • #52
Mallignamius said:
I certainly hope they do. And they do. But how would improvement eventually come forth if we (and they) just ignored what they see as atrocities?
What they've been screaming is "we are sovereign - we have the right to manage ouir own affairs, and to retain our culture WITHOUT the West coming in an stromping all over everything with capitalist shoes. Such as (you know it had to be played...) invading us."
 
  • #53
Saudi Arabia is an authoritarian regime. Without democracy, events like this one will continue to be sanctioned by the state. The deepest outrage is to deny an entire population (especially females) the right to enact their own laws.
 
  • #54
Evo said:
Objection 1) FLOGGING
Agreed.That is barbaric.

Evo said:
Objection 2) Women aren't treated as equal human beings, they have virtually no rights.
Agreed. That is barbaric.

Evo said:
That a woman is not allowed to be alone with a man that is not a relative, no matter how innocent. It's not just frowned upon, it's a crime punishable by flogging and prison! A man with a woman that is not a relative, will not be punished.
Agreed. That is hypocritical, if true. I did not see in the article where it said that there was NOT a comparable law for men.

Evo said:
And that's just in this article. Want to start a discussion on the lack of women's right in Islamic countries?
Nope. Just wanted the cards on the table. That is a much more discussable list than we had at the start.
 
  • #55
DaveC426913 said:
All I am saying is that: the article is NOT ABOUT the men - I will presume that their case is being dealt with.
Their sentence was doubled too.

The article is about this woman who committed a crime. Does everyone believe that Saudi Arabia has no right to impose a law upon its people that forbids the mixing of women with men that they do not know?
The punishment is extreme for such a crime, and that only the woman is punished in such a situation, not the man, makes it even more of an unreasonable law. If it is illegal for men and women to mix, then BOTH are guilty of that crime (she was not raped by the man she was with, she was raped by other men). To punish a crime that creates no physical harm with something that does cause physical harm should be considered a human rights violation that no country should be allowed to get away with.
 
  • #56
DaveC426913 said:
What they've been screaming is "we are sovereign - we have the right to manage ouir own affairs, and to retain our culture WITHOUT the West coming in an stromping all over everything with capitalist shoes. Such as (you know it had to be played...) invading us."

Their example isn't exactly the best one to learn from. But this is merely an example you've given. You're not really arguing against my point:

It's beneficial to judge another culture.
 
  • #57
Moonbear said:
should be considered a human rights violation that no country should be allowed to get away with.
Maybe you're thinking a bit too idealistically.
 
  • #58
Mk said:
Maybe you're thinking a bit too idealistically.
Are you saying that basic human rights should not be universal?
 
  • #59
"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.
 
  • #60
Mk said:
"Human rights violations" happen. Cultures of people can abhor at things that happen in other cultures. Other cultures get away with it. It's idealistic to think everybody should be happy and morally good, regardless of your moral philosophy.
Yes, and that is why we should be pro-active in expecting human rights everywhere. Change sometimes has to be forced. It is not right that these women should be abused, and it is not right that we should stand by, aware of these atrocities, and say nothing.
 

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